RCN Dead Reckoning

[Underway]

A wide ranging interview with CRCN Rear Adm Topshee by the U.S. Naval Institute. There are a bunch of things in here that inform various discussions over various threads.

What follows are things that I thought were interesting.

• Stating the CSC would be called Destroyers well before the announcement. Many of us knew this was the case but it's fun to see the evidence after the fact.
  • returning to our roots as a Destroyer focused navy
• Submarines were clearly directed to be purchased particularly for guarding the arctic approaches
  • true MOTS - contenders are in Korea, Japan, Germany, Spain, Sweden and Netherlands (with a specific discussion on how the Dutch sub is very close to our requirements)
  • discussion on submarine AIP, CRNC stated that battery technology is at the point where AIP may not be necessary as battery technology has advanced to the point where may meet the indiscretion requirements
  • more submarines than the current fleet size are needed, 8 or 12 are the numbers mentioned
• Arctic security discussion on the main threats China and Russia. Interesting to see how CRNC was not overly worried about Russia as their behaviour makes sense (but bares watching), but the China declaring to be a near arctic nation is a concern
  • Only resources extraction that seem of concern is fishing and protein extraction
  • AOPS are a timely capability for the Arctic and for Canada to understand what is going on up there. Their capability has gone beyond what was expected already.
  • Arctic infrastructure. RCN contributing to civilian infrastructure to ensure that its viable for our uses (Grays Bay?)
  • Submarines are critical to provide presence in the arctic approaches.
• Shipbuilding
  • Irving is building AOPS now ahead of the revised schedule (which was pushed back due to challenges with the first HDW build)
  • Seaspan has some significant respect for being so agile in their design and build process as they have to constantly shift gears to build different ships
  • Submarines will not be built in Canada (see MOTS comment above).
  • River Class as of May was at 80% design completion and construction will start on the blocks that are now set in stone/complete in their design.
• Looking to the future mine clearing and discussions on how to clean up the mines in the Black Sea after the war is over (whatever that looks like). Teams or ship deployments to the Black sea and what equipment may be needed to do that job.
• discusion of revitalization of our roots to be amoung the best in the world at theatre ASW, which informs equipment decisions like P-8's

I've left a bunch of stuff and nuance out, but overall a really interesting discussion with a lot of information.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

A wide ranging interview with CRCN Rear Adm Topshee by the U.S. Naval Institute. There are a bunch of things in here that inform various discussions over various threads.

• more submarines than the current fleet size are needed, 8 or 12 are the numbers mentioned

I must wonder if we'd ever be able to recruit that many personal who'd want to serve on them....

 

[Underway]

I must wonder if we'd ever be able to recruit that many personal who'd want to serve on them....

Certainly a risk.

 

[CBH99]

I must wonder if we'd ever be able to recruit that many personal who'd want to serve on them....

It takes a VERY special kind of person to want to be a submariner, I've come to realize...and I admit it isn't for me

Those lads & ladies, hats off to them. Not only brave, but an incredibly intelligent group of people at that

 

[brihard]

I must wonder if we'd ever be able to recruit that many personal who'd want to serve on them....

Get the capability up and running, then some out to sea, make them relevant, and inherently by their nature they’ll do some ‘cool’ stuff that will get quietly spoken of within RCN. Troops want to be pet of something that’s special; if a capability is retired and actually does some special work, some of the right people will gravitate to it. I don’t think the problems our navy has comes from a lack of interest in actually doing the job signed up for, but rather a lot of the frigging around, trying to get qualified, and trying to keep badly beat up ships serviceable, no? RCN is entering into the early phases of a generational fleet renewal. Communicating that effectively, and showing what a career in CAF can really offer could go far.

 

[dimsum]

Get the capability up and running, then some out to sea, make them relevant, and inherently by their nature they’ll do some ‘cool’ stuff that will get quietly spoken of within RCN. Troops want to be pet of something that’s special; if a capability is retired and actually does some special work, some of the right people will gravitate to it. I don’t think the problems our navy has comes from a lack of interest in actually doing the job signed up for, but rather a lot of the frigging around, trying to get qualified, and trying to keep badly beat up ships serviceable, no? RCN is entering into the early phases of a generational fleet renewal. Communicating that effectively, and showing what a career in CAF can really offer could go far.

I think one of the reasons why the sub force (not just Canada’s) isn’t getting recruiting up is the inherent secrecy of everything from your family.

I’m sure there are people (and their families) who don’t mind “going dark” for months at a time, but I can’t think of too many spouses and kids who would like that.

 

[Underway]

I think one of the reasons why the sub force (not just Canada’s) isn’t getting recruiting up is the inherent secrecy of everything from your family.

I’m sure there are people (and their families) who don’t mind “going dark” for months at a time, but I can’t think of too many spouses and kids who would like that.

It takes a special person to be a submariner. And a lot of them do it for half a career and then when they get married or their kids are older they bring their expertise to the surface fleet.

Interestingly enough a lot of submariners say that sailing for them is less stressful then on the surface for both them and their family. Both of them know they can't talk so they both just get on with it, no day to day gossip or stressors sent to the ship (car broke down, Timmy failed math etc...) where the sailor can't do anything and the spouse just has to deal with the problem themselves.

A larger newer submarine could go some way to making things more attractive.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Funny that Gray Harbour stuff, my brother worked on geophysics stuff on some of the potentiel projects there. As for the subs I see 8 being a viable number to keep 1 operational sub on each coast, with 2 in deep refit, 2 working up to be operational and 2 in hot layup until we can rebuild the crew strength.

 

[Underway]

Funny that Gray Harbour stuff, my brother worked on geophysics stuff on some of the potentiel projects there. As for the subs I see 8 being a viable number to keep 1 operational sub on each coast, with 2 in deep refit, 2 working up to be operational and 2 in hot layup until we can rebuild the crew strength.

I think that's why the number 8-12 is being considered. 8 guarantees one on each coast at high readyness or at sea all the time. 12 probably guarantees two on each coast (in an ideal world).'

If Grays Bay becomes a thing thats a big game changer for that portion of the north. And it's riright smack in the middle of one route through the NWP. A legit deep sea port, with associated infrastructure which's economic viability that is not dependant on the military. Post Panamax class is friggin huge as well. The only thing that I'm not a fan of is the seasonality of the roads. But what you gonna do...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I have seen winter roads evolve into year round. Once the road is in place, you start upgrading the easy sections, put permanent small bridges in where you can. Takes about 15 years if there is serious need.

 

[KevinB]

I have seen winter roads evolve into year round. Once the road is in place, you start upgrading the easy sections, put permanent small bridges in where you can. Takes about 15 years if there is serious need.

Takes about 1 year if one is very serious. Just truck in gravel and rock, then anchor and concrete.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Takes about 1 year if one is very serious. Just truck in gravel and rock, then anchor and concrete.

You be surprised at what muskeg can swallow. I was inspecting one logging bridge as they were pounding piles for it. The engineer had estimated 20m of steel pipe was needed for each pile (about ten for each abutment), they finally reached something solid at 60m. This was at a time when there was a steel shortage as well, he was very unhappy.
Once you get the ice road in, you can do geophysics to figure out where the solid bits are and you build the all weather bits there. That speeds up how soon the road starts every year and makes it last longer. Then you go for the two bits near the ends as they get a lot more use. Then there is always a big water gap somewhere and that is where a lot planning goes in, do you do a ferry/ice bridge or accept the cost of a detour?

 

[KevinB]

You be surprised at what muskeg can swallow

Few thousand tons of rock solves everything

. I was inspecting one logging bridge as they were pounding piles for it. The engineer had estimated 20m of steel pipe was needed for each pile (about ten for each abutment), they finally reached something solid at 60m. This was at a time when there was a steel shortage as well, he was very unhappy.

A lot of northern Ontario roads got lumber scrap fill, cheap and works till it rots and the road it ruined.

Once you get the ice road in, you can do geophysics to figure out where the solid bits are and you build the all weather bits there. That speeds up how soon the road starts every year and makes it last longer. Then you go for the two bits near the ends as they get a lot more use. Then there is always a big water gap somewhere and that is where a lot planning goes in, do you do a ferry/ice bridge or accept the cost of a detour?

At the end of the day if your being really serious you need a lot of rock, from large 8’ ones to smaller 6” ones and then fill gravel on it till you have a solid foundation to drive some anchor beams. Then put 3’ of rebar concrete in as the surface and you have a road that will last for a long time.

It isn’t cheap - but if you want a lasting road…

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Few thousand tons of rock solves everything


A lot of northern Ontario roads got lumber scrap fill, cheap and works till it rots and the road it ruined.

At the end of the day if your being really serious you need a lot of rock, from large 8’ ones to smaller 6” ones and then fill gravel on it till you have a solid foundation to drive some anchor beams. Then put 3’ of rebar concrete in as the surface and you have a road that will last for a long time.

It isn’t cheap - but if you want a lasting road…

IN NE BC there is one rock quarry with good rock and it's owned by BC Highway's. Everyone has to use a sandstone type rock and dirt that turns into liquid shit when it rains.

 

[brihard]

that turns into liquid shit when it rains.

Wait, did I miss this turning into a thread about PRes training attendance?

 

[Kirkhill]

Few thousand tons of rock solves everything


A lot of northern Ontario roads got lumber scrap fill, cheap and works till it rots and the road it ruined.

At the end of the day if your being really serious you need a lot of rock, from large 8’ ones to smaller 6” ones and then fill gravel on it till you have a solid foundation to drive some anchor beams. Then put 3’ of rebar concrete in as the surface and you have a road that will last for a long time.

It isn’t cheap - but if you want a lasting road…

Plan B - Floating Bridges - clear a channel of muck and float barges or caissons in it.

Okanagan Lake Bridge - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lacey V. Murrow Memorial Bridge - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Evergreen Point Floating Bridge - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[lenaitch]

A lot of northern Ontario roads got lumber scrap fill, cheap and works till it rots and the road it ruined.

My dad had stories about the building of the Ferguson Highway (original Hwy 11) north of North Bay. Workers would cut timber and lay down corduroy until it stopped sinking. More that once, equipment left on the ground was swallowed up by morning. Even today, the speed on the rain line between Cochrane and Moosonee is limited because of the roadbed. A couple of years ago, they tested a GO Transit by-level car on the run and apparently the upper deck would have been unrideable because of the swaying.

Much of northern Ontario alternates between muskeg and rock. In the Hudson's Bay Lowlands it is muskeg and bands of sand/gravel eskers running roughly north south (glacial action). One of the Ring of Fire mining proposals (chromite, etc. way north) is for a haul road to a rail head. It will be very expensive to build a road that can survive the pounding year-round.

 

[KevinB]

Some of the weirdest stuff occurred in northern Ontario’s road construction, where thousands of tons of rock was blasted and then bulldozed to the side off the road, when a few KM up the road was areas that really needed that rock.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Some of the weirdest stuff occurred in northern Ontario’s road construction, where thousands of tons of rock was blasted and then bulldozed to the side off the road, when a few KM up the road was areas that really needed that rock.

There is always money to repeat the same mistake. But not money to do it right the first time around.

 

[KevinB]

There is always money to repeat the same mistake. But not money to do it right the first time around.

Sadly true.