RCR red sash

[12dlewis]

I had heard that the red sash worn by some memebers of the RCR(senior NCO‘s I believe), was imposed on the unit for something that went wrong and that they (RCR‘s) were to wear it for something like a hundred years. Can anyone confirm or elaborate on the story about the "Red Sash"?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Gonna go out on a limb here. I‘m not really sure, but I think it‘s just some kind of "badge of office" type thing. Plenty of other infantry snr nco‘s, from different outfits, wear it also.

 

[Tom Barrett]

During the Boer War some RCR Pte, I‘ll call him Bloggins was twice cited for a Victoria Cross. He was denied both times but upon hearing his courage, Queen victoria Knitted him a sash or scarf as a token. The RCR red sash is susposedly worn in conmemoration.

 

[Art Johnson]

Let‘s start with some military etiquette. The name of the regiment you write of is The Royal Canadian Regiment or if you prefer The RCR. The word The is part of their title. Red sashes have been worn by Senior NCO‘s of the British Army for a long time. It is a tradition that has been passed on to the Canadian Army. I believe the subject of the Red Sash and its purpose and origin has been discussed on this forum before. To be sure it is not any dishonour to wear the Red Sash.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

GodOSigs,
The scarf you speak of is not the same thing (red sash). It was in recognition of valour. I believe it was won by a medic attached to The RCR. A copy of the citation is on the wall in the WO‘s&Sgt‘s Mess in Meaford with the particulars. Confirmation anyone?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The Queen‘s Scarf is yellow, not red, and has nothing to do with the sash worn by NCOs in Infantry Regiments throughout the Canadian Army.

Exceptions are Rifle Regiments - NCOs there wear black cross belts.

Warrant Officers and Officers wear purple sashes, incidentally. I think that PPCLI officers wear them around the waist; in my regiment (Calgary Highlanders) they wear them over the shoulder.

Also - sergeants in non-infantry trades serving in infantry regiments wear the sash (ie Drum Major, Pipe Major, etc.) but they wear them on the opposite shoulder than the infantry sergeants.

 

[JRMACDONALD]

Going to go out on on limb here! the British army had "sashes" for a while( 300-400yrs). For some odd reason we(theCanadians) picked them up(something to do with our history!) NO DISHONOR! DLEWIS! you, got this INFO from some one ,who wasn‘t from theRCR!!!!
In the RCR ,SGTs+WOs wear a red sash, MWOs wear scarlet. ( oh yeah the amount of "tassels‘have NOTHING to do withBattle Honours.)

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Mike D,
There must be other versions of a Queen‘s scarf. The two replicas I‘ve seen, Meaford and museum, are both similar in colour to the ribbon on the VC.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

My reference is WE STAND ON GUARD , colour photo p. 63 - photo source is the Canadian War Museum. It is possible they have this wrong and have photographed the wrong scarf, since the book gives no details as to colour - just that the scarf was knitted by hand and bears a royal cipher. In the photo in the book, no cipher is visible...but it is folder and laying on a flat surface. Curious...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Mike,
Here‘s the web site for this subject at the Canadian War Museum. From the sounds of it there were only eight made and only one went to a Canadian. Unfortunately, nothing about the colour, still looking and digging though. There should be someone he from The RCR that can confirm the colour. By the by this site cleared up the misconceptions I had re: the scarf as a decoration, should put to rest some old wives tales for anyone interested in looking.
http://www.museedelaguerre.ca/cwm/saw/person/thomps_e.html

Found this site with a photo of the scarf an another writeup, hard to tell the colour in the picture, almost looks yellow, but when I brought it into a photo editing program it identified the prominent colour as red with green and blue undertones= shade of purple. Here‘s the site.
http://www.camerons.ca/History/heros.htm

 

[JRMACDONALD]

my $2.00 worth( inflation, you know!)
Queens scarf is a "heavy/darker "shade of yellow. gold, perhaps?
Mike D. your officers sashes are NOT purple! (red or scarlet, you know!)

 

[McG]

There was an article on the history of the sash in Canadian Infantry regiments in the last edition of the Maple Leaf. Most of its points have already been rasied, but not the origin of the sash. According to the article, the sash was issued to assist officers and Sr NCO‘s to remove injured from the battle field. Origionally it was worn according to user preference, but with time standards were developed (and regularly changed). Today, the only ones who were the sash around their wastes (that I know of) are officers and CWOs of the PPCLI; all others wear the sash over their shoulder.

 

[JRMACDONALD]

McG- from London ,huh!? Haven‘t seen too many RCR RSMs on parade, have you?

 

[fusilier]

I know of two reserve units that wear the khaki lanyard as well. MCpl and above of course. My regiment the Princess Louise Fusiliers in Halifax recently started wearing them. The Royal Newfoundland Regiment (1st Battalion, I‘m not sure about 2nd Battalion though).

 

[Gordon Angus Mackinlay]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

A friend of mine emailed me this discussion.
The Infantry Scarlet (not red, purple or whatever colour) Sash is common to all Armies of the British Commonwealth, to be worn by Warrant Officers and Senior NCOs (ie Canadian Sgts, WO, MWOs, but, not CWOs) ie Sgts, Staff Sgts (commonly known in infantry as Colour Sgts), Warrant Officers Class Two, but not Warrant Officers Class One (such as Canada had pre unification).

In the dress regulations (I cannot remember the PC canadian designation) of the CFs, the Scarlet Sash is so authorised. The Canadian guards recently in London, such as the PPCLI SNCOs wore such with the Green Uniform. It has always been authorised for the Canadian Army since 1867 with the creation of the Militia Act.

Warrant Officer Class One (your CWO) holding the appointment of RSM wears the waist belt sword equipment, with the infantry pattern sword, again this is common to all Commonwealth Armies. Those WOIs not holding the appointment of RSM wear a Sam Browne belt equipment, I‘m not such what CWO with a Canadian inf bn wears (I don‘t think there is such infantry creatures in a modern Can Inf bn)

In regard to The Queens Scarf, this was personal award to men of the British and Dominion Armies for the Anglo-Boer War. She knitted them in ‘honey‘ coloured high grade wool, with her personal cypher within. I have examined four of them over the years, they are a very high quality item. The receipients were all given them for gallantry of the highest degree, and believe it or not the receipeints were all extremely pleased and satified with the award!!!

Yours Jock in Sydney, Australia

 

[Michael OLeary]

Jock, thanks for that concise summary.

The issue of the "meaning" of regimental lanyards/whistle cords continue to circulate like the urban nyths they are. Invariably they are offered in good faith, but it is always a vague anecdotal reference that "somebody heard somebody heard." Notably these anecdotes never include details (because they‘ve never been passed along), not even something so vague as to what war they refer. And such items never standup to critical examination.

Idiosyncrasies of regimental dress (lanyards, button designs, etc.) as well as other items of regimental custom (marchpasts, etc., and even selection of battle honours) were often the purview of the controlling influences within Regimental senates at the time of their adoption. While many aspects have historical precursors, such as the infantry red sash, others have a far less official provenance.

Mike O‘Leary

The Regimental Rogue

 

[Art Johnson]

Mike, just a comment on your remark about Battle Honours. The only choice the Regiment has is which 10 will be emblazoned on their colours. The decision on which Battle Honours a unit is entitled to is made by a committee in Ottawa.

Pro Patria

 

[Gordon Angus Mackinlay]

Many thanks for the comments Mr O‘Leary, but, I am afraid that the message got somewhat jumbled in comparison with my original, My overeducated sons inform me it is just one of the idosycies of the net!!!!

The comments about urban myths are very true, and you can see it on many of these discussion lists, such as King‘s Corporal, "the Artillery wears the white lanyard for cowardice", saluting is a sign of servitute etc etc.

Being someone who spent the majority of his army life attached to infantry (a medic) before joining the RAAF, I have always been exposed to regimental customs. These take the form of many excentricities, ranging from the Corporals Mess of the 1st Bn Grenadier Gds having a formal dinner in memorary of a Cpl VC winner in WWII, to the new COs of the 1st Bn Royal Australian Regiment on his being dined in to the Sgts & WOs Mess, being drilled by the RQMS with a spade GS in 1950‘s era rifle drill! To the calling of the Roll and marching of the officers of the CAR to the Senior NCOs mess for Xmas drinks by the RSM.

All of these bizarre things to a civilian mind, establish that strange thing espri de corps,after all what is more strange than a group of men (and now women) whose basic purpose in life is to take life.

The bizarre thing in this day and age is however, how those who are now the young soldiers and future leaders feel about such items as dress. Over recent years I have (more to keep myself amused than anything else) conducted informal surveys of junior servicemen whilst in the Former Yugoslavia, on such things as dress distinctions, customs etc. These being in the main Brits/NZs/Canadians , whilst back at home Australians and more NZs.

The most common response being that they liked being able to wear a smart uniform, with insignia that is appropriate to and identifies their regiment. Regimental customs being important, because it makes them feel special and belonging to something worthwhile. They may winge and moan about such things,but, what was a common response, was it was their right to do so.

Interestingly, when discussing this with German Heer personnel, they were avid for the introduction of such items of dress, and the creation of a regimental system. In discussion their comments were that the French have this is a very "formidable manner", but, the British Commonwealth people do it best???

In Australia dress has become a symbol of disconcent. The slouch hat was forced on everyone to wear at all times, the RAR had to give up its green beret to wear the slouch hat, armoured corps the same with the black beret - having to wear the slouch hat, etc, they can of course wear the black beret in AFVs.

The loss of shoulder titles, having to wear the insignia of the Australian Imperial Force, to wit the Rising Sun Cap badge, buttons etc, and the wearing of colour cloth patches, from AIF units. The regular army has no direct link with the AIF, the old soldiers of the 1950-90s used to sneer at the Regular Army. We having built up our own tradition in Korea/Malaya/Borneo/ SVN/East Timor/peace keeping . Leaves a lot of people with a sense of not belonging.

In many ways these changes are similar to what occurred in the CAF in the early 1970‘s, which such dress changes. One such change which has many angry has been the move of Warrant Officer insignia from the lower fore arm to the mid upper arm "this to bring us in line with the US military"!!!!!!!!!!!

A complex subject.

Yours,
Jock in Sydney

 

[Michael OLeary]

Art, regarding the selection of Battle Honours by the regiments, the following is excerpted from ‘33-1 Battle Honours - The Second World War, Part "A" Supplement to Canadian Army Orders, 10 Sep 1956"

"Selection of Honours
26. Each armoured or infantry regiment concerned will form a regimental honours committee of not less than five members .....
27. The regimental committee will:
(a) consider the draft regimental list of honours and claim the award of those considered appropriate;
(b) initiate a claim for any honour not included in the list of operations below or in the draft regimental list to which the regiment considers it has an entitlement. Each claim thus submitted will have to be accompanied by strong supporting evidence;
(c) select from the full list of honours claimed for award, up to ten hanours to be emblazoned on the colours or appointments;
(d) forward claims and selections through the usual channels to Army Headquarters."

As you can see from this text, while the Army prepared draft lists of Battle Honours for regiments, it was the responsibility of each regiment to ratify those selections or to submit changes/corrections as determined by the regimental committee.

It was this regimental role in the pursuing of battle honours that saw the Princess Louise Fusiliers support and receive the honour ARNHEN ‘45 last year.

Pro Patria

Mike
The Regimental Rogue

 

[Art Johnson]

Mike you are absolutely right. I‘ll have to plead a "Seniors Moment" as similar information as what you quoted was within arms reach when I typed my last post. My apologies.