Re: high-protein diets and other stuff

[Hot Lips]

Of course...Paracowboy...we agree on basic nutrition requirements...I am always up for an arm wrestle.

I will however make the following point...if I was not training and sedentary my caloric requirement for the day would be in the ball park of 1200 calories to maintain my weight...but when I train hard...and I have been for some time...my caloric requirements increase to 2500 calories to meet the metabolic demands I have put on my body...

To consume 2500 calories in the form of cauliflower and carrots would require a bushel of each a day...which is not convenient or obtainable...especially if I am working 12 hour shifts on top of my training...

Basic nutrition and sports nutrition overlap...however aren't exactly the same...I believe in well researched, balanced, supplemented eating plans when training...based on Canada's Food Guide

Be well
HL

 

[paracowboy]

I believe in well researched, balanced, supplemented eating plans when training...based on Canada's Food Guide

as do I, which is why I have recruited the assistance of the Brigade's Expert on Fitness Nutrition. This is her job & her passion, and her experience & word vastly outweighs yours, mine, or anyone else's on these boards. So, I'm going to leave this up long enough for it to be read, and then prune the thread again.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

A protein heavy diet is easy to achieve, but isn’t as efficient for muscle growth, and fat loss.

Have you tried telling Ronnie Coleman that, by any chance?

I am not sure where some of this info you are posting is coming from but its not 100%.  You are painting nutrition with one big wide roller, and not considering that DIFFERENT AIMS/GOALS in fitness require different approaches.

And it appears your opinion(s) is/are not ones you are comfortable having challenged, regardless the source. 

Any reason for this? 

Again, call Ronnie Coleman, Lee Haney, Dorian Yates, or anyone like that and tell them "heavy protein diet is not good for muscle growth".

.....

 

[paracowboy]

Have you tried telling Ronnie Coleman that, by any chance?

I am not sure where some of this info you are posting is coming from but its not 100%.  You are painting nutrition with one big wide roller, and not considering that DIFFERENT AIMS/GOALS in fitness require different approaches.

And it appears your opinion(s) is/are not ones you are comfortable having challenged, regardless the source. 

Any reason for this? 

Again, call Ronnie Coleman, Lee Haney, Dorian Yates, or anyone like that and tell them "heavy protein diet is not good for muscle growth".

.....

you're going to use professional bodybuilders as your source? Give your head a shake! Read the damn thread: you'll see where my views are coming from, who my sources are, and my reasons for posting fact vs fiction.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

as do I, which is why I have recruited the assistance of the Brigade's Expert on Fitness Nutrition. This is her job & her passion, and her experience & word vastly outweighs yours, mine, or anyone else's on these boards. So, I'm going to leave this up long enough for it to be read, and then prune the thread again.

And her credentials are?  (not meant in disrespect, but who/what is she?) a serious question...I read alot of stuff from world-class athletes in magazines, on-line, etc etc too.  Next question is..what level of fitness is this person at?  Serious question once again.

I am betting if I look, I can find experts who will counter her opinion, so I am curious what about this person makes them the world's experts, cause I know of experts in bodybuilding who train, eat and recover differently but are all considered world-class athletes...and none any better than the other, so...

Again, its a serious question, as opposed to a cheap shot.

Mud

 

[paracowboy]

her creds are sufficient that the Army has hired her to teach it's troops how to eat properly in order to achieve maximum performance in their duties, and in athletic events. I've already stated in the thread what her educational levels are.

The pub I'm using is the army's official stance on nutrition, based on the Gov't's research.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

you're going to use professional bodybuilders as your source? Give your head a shake! Read the damn thread: you'll see where my views are coming from, who my sources are, and my reasons for posting fact vs fiction.

HA HA HA.  I can see your point, what would THEY know about muscle growth, eh? 

:

So basically, if someone disagrees with YOU..THEY are wrong.  Got it. 

You posted the fact about protein and muscle growth, not me.  I am telling the others that read this post that that is NOT correct.  Plain and simple.

I can cut and paste a ton of stuff from the internet too, doesn't mean I am an expert.

So whats the source of all this "cut and paste" info anyways?

 

[17thRecceSgt]

her creds are sufficient that the Army has hired her to teach it's troops how to eat properly in order to achieve maximum performance in their duties, and in athletic events. I've already stated in the thread what her educational levels are.

The pub I'm using is the army's official stance on nutrition, based on the Gov't's research.

Which are? 

I didn't see her actual credentials, education, etc etc etc.  Lots of text there  you pasted, hard to pull that out of it all...

THe governement alreayd did that, its called "Canada's Food Guide".

You are leaning towards a stance here that what you say and only what you say is right/correct/acceptable.  I am not sure that is the best approach, and YES I will listen to what the advice of a professional body (read muscle) builder says over pretty much anyone else.  I also listen to a pilots advice on how to fly...are you saying that say Muscle and Fitness, if they were to publish an article by Mr Olympia about nutrition and protein and all that, that they would be out of their lane???????

AS I said, I have heard/read/seen LOTS of conflicting info on the "best" way, and have firmly come to the conclusion that no one way is the best for everyone.

Alittle uptight today?

 

[paracowboy]

I haven't cut any of this, dude. This is all typed out, by hand, from A-MD-007-006/PW-001. I spend a couple hours a day doing it every day. I do it so that the bullshit that the various bodybuilder magazines, promulgate can be looked at with the jaundiced eye it deserves. I do it so that the troops and wannabes who read this don't fall into the same mistakes so many of us made. The point is that I want to see them avoid false information. The point of the thread is to promote healthy eating habits amongst all readers, thus improving their lives.

You about done over-reacting again?

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Not over-reacting...IMO, the comment I singled out on protein was incorrect.

Here's some info on whey protein, the one I use and researched...and the one I take after weights or a heavy cardio session...

Whey Protein Supplement Muscle Building Review

What is Whey?

Whey is a natural dairy protein that is derived from the cheese making process. Most commercial whey supplements are derived from cow's milk, which is comprised of 6.25% protein: 20% in the form of whey. Whey protein supplements utilize the concentrated protein, eliminating the lactose and milk fat making it a remarkable source of protein.

Whey is a complete protein, meaning it contains all essential amino acids, which are vital to your metabolism, and to making your body function properly for good health. Whey also boasts the highest concentrations of branched chain amino acids (BCAA's) found in nature. Branched chain amino acids are an important source of energy during exercise and play a key role in protein synthesis.

Whey protein, when properly processed has the highest biological value of all proteins. Biological value relates to how much of the protein consumed is actually absorbed, retained and used by your body. More specifically, biological value is the measure used to rate protein quality through nitrogen retention. The higher the quality of protein, the more nitrogen is absorbed and retained by your body.

Why Whey Protein?

Compared to all other protein sources, whey is the highest biologically active protein known to measurably enhance muscle recovery after extremely intense exercise. A high biological value means it may yield more usable grams of amino acids. It also contains the highest concentration of branched-chain amino acids (BCAA) of any single protein source. BCAAs are essential amino acids that are part of muscle protein and help reduce the amount of protein breakdown during exercise. This BCAA content is important to active people because BCAAs are an integral part of muscle metabolism and are the first amino acids sacrificed during muscle protein breakdown. This makes whey protein a vital supplement for most conditioning programs.

Who needs Whey Protein?

Whey protein is very important for athletes, dieters, elderly people, and just about everyone. Since athletes workout often, protein levels become depleted and the content from high quality whey protein promotes muscle recovery by bringing up the levels of protein. For dieters and those wishing to lose some extra fat, whey protein can be very useful because a good intake of protein balances blood sugar levels. Keeping blood sugar levels balanced is the most effective way to ward off binge eating. In a study published in June 2001, it was also suggested that the Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA) for protein might not be adequate to completely meet the metabolic and physiological needs of all older people.

Most people trying to change their body's lean muscle composition can benefit from adding protein to their diets. However, since protein is naturally found in many food items, deficiency is not always the problem. What is a problem, however, is that many protein-laden foods are associated with high levels of fat and cholesterol. Supplemental whey protein can ensure that your protein needs can be met in a healthy way.

Other possible benefits of Whey Protein:

Numerous studies have shown that whey proteins help enhance the body's immune system by raising glutathione levels. Glutathione is a powerful anti-oxidant with the ability to help the body reduce the risk of infections by improving the body's immune response. There is also some evidence to suggest that whey protein potentially plays a role as an anti-carcinogen.

Are There Side Effects of Taking Whey Protein?

There are no documented side effects provided a person does not have an allergy to dairy proteins or is lactose intolerant.


Asking for her credentials is not over-reacting, its asking for cerdentials.  ??

I will agree with the point that there are LOTS of shite-ty magazines out there AND lots of companies pushing products that are of no use, and thats a fact.  But not ALL of them are bad, or useless, and eating an apple after a weights session is not as good as the stuff I use, based on the research I did.  Everyone is different, right?

I never seen this PUB before, I will have to look it up.  However, I consider Muscle and Fitness a credible source of SOME info (ignoring the adds and reading the articles by athletes).

Again, Canada's Food Guide already did all this for us, even going so far as to have low end and high end servings.  The Army could just use that, no?  I am betting the 2 ref's jive really close...

Lets start with ripping the pop machines and deep-fryers out of all our Mess Halls...

And, like most on here, I enjoy a good debate.  Don't you?  :-*

 

[HDE]

Professional bodybuilders eat/train for a very specific, and freakish,  outcome which hardly qualifies as fitness.  Are they able to run any distance, even allowing for serious chaffing issues ;D  Aerobic health?    To borrow a line from others the key is to train for the task.  I'd love to see Dorian, Ronnie, etc actually perform some real world tests of "fitness"

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Professional bodybuilders eat/train for a very specific, and freakish,  outcome which hardly qualifies as fitness.  Are they able to run any distance, even allowing for serious chaffing issues ;D  Aerobic health?    To borrow a line from others the key is to train for the task.  I'd love to see Dorian, Ronnie, etc actually perform some real world tests of "fitness"

Then you need to read my whole post, cause I said that somewhere's.  I am using an example.  Gee bodybuilders train for a different goal?  Wow.  Really?  :

Point is...regardless of the AIM, the need for protein is the same.  WTF does chaffing have to do with protein, which is the point of my lil debate with Paracowboy? 

Real world tests of fitness..just curious, how do you think they keep their fat levels down, the ones that have a "lean all year long" approach to training?

I am not sure what your point is, or why you would infer what you did....oh, does winning the worlds biggest bodybuilding title count as real world fitness test to you?  Training the way/eating the way they do?  :

Now, I am in no way a fan or supporter of roids in any way shape or form, against them actually, but the all-natural folks are impressively in shape and some of them run like deers.  Bit of a wide brush to paint an entire sport with don't you think?

Sorta like me saying all cyclists are dopers cause of the one dork from the States in the news now...what's-his-name, Dope-Boy  ;D

 

[17thRecceSgt]

  You are painting nutrition with one big wide roller, and not considering that DIFFERENT AIMS/GOALS in fitness require different approaches.

To quote myself HDE, here's where I am saying...not everyone can do it the same cause they don't all have the same goals.  however on the point of building muscle, can you provide a more credible expert than someone who won Mr Olympia??  You do know what that is?  If not, Mike Myers and myself have never won it.  ;D

Simple point, while the basics count for all, everyone needs to find what is best for them, and no PUB made by the Army is capable of that.  Or bodybuilding magazine.

Whey protein is natural.  I use it.  L-glutamine is found naturally in your body.  I use it.  Creatine is found naturally in the body.  I use it.  I use multi-vitamins too, and eat clean.  I also researched, and made my own informed choices from LOTS of different sources.

 

[HDE]

Relax.

  There's no question that adequate levels of protein to acquire and maintain muscle mass is important, however citing professional bodybuilders as evidence probably isn't a great idea.  As to winning the world's biggest bodybuilding competition being proof of anything, well that'd suggest that the person best able to hit a questionable goal is a good role model.  I don't think we're fundamentally disagreeing on protein, rather I'm just commenting that the real heavyweight bodybulders are pretty much entirely focussed on muscle mass, which may not be a good indicator of fitness.  As always decide what works best for the goal in mind and go with it.

Anyway, have a good one.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

I am relaxed.  I quoted 1 lil point from all those posts, and disagreed with it.  Thats all.

Tough crowd today!   

All, if ya go back, and look at the one point I disagreed with it was ref high protien and muscles growth.  The rest of it is just a good debate.

Three words.

Canada's Food Guide   

 

[paracowboy]

I'll go back and prune the thread to bring it back in line with the CF's policy on Nutrition for Action later. I still have pages to type.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

I'll go back and prune the thread to bring it back in line with the CF's policy on Nutrition for Action later. I still have pages to type.

aka "remove the stuff that doesn't support what I say"??

Isn't that censorship?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship

Censorship is the control of speech and other forms of human expression. In many (but not all) cases, it is exercised by governing bodies. The visible motive of censorship is often to stabilize or improve the society that the government would have control over. It is most commonly applied to acts that occur in public circumstances, and most formally involves the suppression of ideas by criminalizing or regulating expression. Furthermore, discussion of censorship often includes less formal means of controlling perceptions by excluding various ideas from mass communication. What is censored may range from specific words to entire concepts and it may be influenced by value systems.

Sanitization (removal) and whitewashing are almost interchangeable terms that refer to a particular form of censorship via omission, which seeks to "clean up" the portrayal of particular issues and/or facts that are already known, but that may be in conflict with the point of view of the censor. Some may consider extreme political correctness to be related, as a socially-imposed (rather than governmentally imposed) type of restriction, which, if taken to extremes, may qualify as self-censorship.

 

[paracowboy]

sure. Whatever.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

however on the point of building muscle, can you provide a more credible expert than someone who won Mr Olympia??  You do know what that is?

:rofl:

Listen friend, years ago I wanted to get into "the game"....didn't take long until I discovered "the game".
These guys could eat the stuff cows leave in the barn and still grow, absoloutely zero to do with high protien, carbs, etc.....

So by your thought the only person that should teach hockey would be the Wayner?

 

[paracowboy]

Listen friend, years ago I wanted to get into "the game"....didn't take long until I discovered "the game".
These guys could eat the stuff cows leave in the barn and still grow, absoloutely zero to do with high protien, carbs, etc.....

not to mention that these guys make their money for the enormous amounts of steroids they need to gain the size they have by going on contract. Look at the person paying their salaries, then look at the products they're hawking, then look at the person who owns the product line being hawked. Look at the magazines they appear in, who owns them, and then look at who owns the products being advertised in the same magazines.