Reconstitution

[markppcli]

Sure but BMQ is basically Army. Less Army people outside Army bases (weirdly).

For reg force, doing it full time in a single go, St. Jean makes a lot of sense. It's pretty cheap to push through several hundred people in a week if you do it in the same spot. Given that HR is a constraint, spreading over multiple spots doesn't make sense.

It doesn’t make sense because a) we just send them to another location anyways, that’s thousands in extra flights per recruit; b) it makes in orders of magnitude more complex to line up training, which means more time spent on BTL / PAT and is wasted wages; c) it extends training time by adding redundant training; finally, d) the wasted time on PAT, and the “one size fits all” standard saps moral. For combat arms recruits they are t getting the challenge the sought, for our more technical trades it’s a bit too army. Waiting on PAT is simply an exercise in watching potential crumble.

 

[FJAG]

The reserves are short even more people than the regulars, what about that tells people on this forum that there is a massive appetite for part time service? We already struggle to attract people to a full-time career that pays pretty well, how are we going to attract people with a couple of years of full-time, followed by a "We don't see a future for you here, but please make yourself available in the free time you have away from your new job."?

I get the appeal of the idea of a citizen soldier that costs little, but provides a massive service, but the reality is that the pool of people willing to work 9-5, then work one evening a week and one weekend a month is pretty small.

There are 38 million people in this country. Hundreds of thousand volunteer to coach hockey. We're looking for 20-25,000 at any given time. Surely we can generate that if we give them a good product to join. Will it work with what the Army currently offers? Let's just say that bad as it is we still have 10-15,000 at any given time. I have zero doubt that with a properly restructured, led and equipped force you will get the numbers needed.

As for regulars leaving to fill out reserve units with a leavening of experience; it all depends on how you incentivize it and run it.

I think the biggest barrier to an effective Army that is a blend of both regular and reserve service is that too many people who run the organization tend to look at what we have and say: "it's perfect the way it is" vis a vis the regular force and "it can't be fixed "vis a vis the reserve" force. We've now gone through several generations of the status quo and are rooted in it. There is a lack of vision and an abundance of risk aversion.

 

[Kirkhill]

You do realize you are redefining the difference between Woolwich and Sandhurst?

Sandhurst trained officers to train and lead soldiers.

Woolwich trained engineers, gunners, cartographers, artificers and other members of the ordnance corps - which also supplied the navy with ordnance and gunners - and ultimately produced flyers, signallers, electricians and mechanics.

Two very different streams.

The Army has one set of needs. The Ordnance another entirely.

 

[markppcli]

There are 38 million people in this country. Hundreds of thousand volunteer to coach hockey. We're looking for 20-25,000 at any given time. Surely we can generate that if we give them a good product to join. Will it work with what the Army currently offers? Let's just say that bad as it is we still have 10-15,000 at any given time. I have zero doubt that with a properly restructured, led and equipped force you will get the numbers needed.

As for regulars leaving to fill out reserve units with a leavening of experience; it all depends on how you incentivize it and run it.

I think the biggest barrier to an effective Army that is a blend of both regular and reserve service is that too many people who run the organization tend to look at what we have and say: "it's perfect the way it is" vis a vis the regular force and "it can't be fixed "vis a vis the reserve" force. We've now gone through several generations of the status quo and are rooted in it. There is a lack of vision and an abundance of risk aversion.

I don’t know that coaching your child’s atom house team is really a relatable situation to reserve service. Frankly it was at its height in the late 1800s when militia regiments were basically uniformed social clubs that went camping together.

 

[FJAG]

I don’t know that coaching your child’s atom house team is really a relatable situation to reserve service. Frankly it was at its height in the late 1800s when militia regiments were basically uniformed social clubs that went camping together.

And the cadet movement was massive and designed to teach drill and marksmanship to children so as to create a valuable precursor for a levée en masse military force capable of repelling the rapacious Americans. And not withstanding the social nature of those Militia regiments, they still produced the core of the Army's officers and other ranks that volunteered to go to war in large numbers not once but twice and who continued to volunteer to back up the regular army in the field for seven decades since.

The coaching analogy was merely to say that we are a country where volunteerism and devoting one's spare time to an activity that benefits the community is not dead. Create an organization that has demonstrable value and there will be more than enough participants in it.

I know I keep harping on this but for me this is a very simple issue of math. As long as the CAF put the vast number of its eggs in the RegF basket it will keep shrinking and lose capability after capability until it becomes irrelevant and incapable of providing security for the nation. The only way to up the personnel strength and the quality and amount of equipment is to find savings in personnel costs. This requires a massive downsizing of the CAF's administrative overhead and to increase the quality and quantity of the ResF. If anyone can come up with any other viable scheme other than "increase the budget" I'd be happy to hear it and get on board.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

There’s a lot of indication/opinion opinion on what the Reserves should/could do as part of the Reconstitution…stuff (not sure I’ll call it a policy at this point…that stretch might hurt some).

Not sure about the NavRes and their health and effectiveness. I know from the ARAF world, RCAF reservists are, generally speaking, former Reg Force mbrs with experience and knowledge in their trade. They have the same Quals from the same TEs as the reg force mbr…they just work 12-14 days a month vice every day. They can and do deploy with no need for XX month “work up” trg.

The Army Reserve world doesn’t work that way so it’s less valuable. Not to kick Army Reserves or Reservists, I was one for quite a few years; this means I’ve also seen and lived the reality. Res force soldiers do not and cannot bring the same level of ability and proficiency to the CAF as a reg force soldier as a rule (there are exceptions).

Are Res force soldiers cheaper to the tax payer? Definitely. Should we put most of our Army eggs in the Reserve force basket? Nope. Never.

Here is a link to the SRP-R. Fact Sheet – Soldier Readiness Policy – Reserve (SRP-R) - Canada.ca

10 full days a year, once every 60 days and those IBTS requirements are pretty thin.

As a tax payer, I want more from my tax dollars. If those standards represent the avg army reservist, my mind goes to what was mentioned earlier about “social group that goes camping together” more than “combat ready land forces”.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Actually we did for Afghanistan and admitted quite freely that we wouldn't have been able to fulfil the missions there without them.

The only people who want a high-paid professional military are the high-paid professional military. This was a concept foisted on Canada by a post WW2 officer corps that convinced government that only "forces in being" could stop the Soviet hordes and effectively went on to ensure that the reserve side of the force became ever less capable of going to war. We need a well, but not high, paid core of professionals around which a stand-by force can be employed. That, and only that, will allow the transfer of the funding of a mostly unnecessary administrative system to combat effective capabilities.

We need to focus less on keeping full-time corporals around for twenty years and more on recruiting and keeping 18 year olds for five years and then making it easy for them to transition to civilian lives and maybe another five years of part-time service while giving them the experience of a lifetime during those years.

This is very Army centric. The RCN and RCAF have everyday tasks to complete with highly complex and expensive machinery. We need full time people and a bank of reserves to augment them.

The field army is a hard life, and while I don’t think emulating our model down here is ideal, there needs to be a happy medium of retention as well as new blood.

I know folks don’t like the concept - but making EVERYONE be an Infanteer (I’ll also accept Cbt Engineer and maybe Arty and Armor too) for their first 4 years has a lot of benefits.
Let folks remuster from that to other trades.

Sure, sounds very Army. But it has no value for RCN and I would wager the same for the RCAF folks.

Why does the combat arms constantly want to inflict its misery on everyone else ?

A brief summery “retired Military officers convinced militia only path forward.”



Yes absolutely yes. Shut down and sell the mega. Technical trades do their basic in Borden and then go on to their respective trades, Sigs can do their basic in Kingston at the school there, Infantry in their regimental depots ( actually my preference would be for the Infantry school with regimental companies but I digress), ect ect, the Navy can do it in Esquimalt with the fleet school and maybe merge that with their environmental training, the Air Force can offer a power point at a suitably located Marriott or Hilton.

The RCN is doing this now from HFX and ESQ.

And the cadet movement was massive and designed to teach drill and marksmanship to children so as to create a valuable precursor for a levée en masse military force capable of repelling the rapacious Americans. And not withstanding the social nature of those Militia regiments, they still produced the core of the Army's officers and other ranks that volunteered to go to war in large numbers not once but twice and who continued to volunteer to back up the regular army in the field for seven decades since.

The coaching analogy was merely to say that we are a country where volunteerism and devoting one's spare time to an activity that benefits the community is not dead. Create an organization that has demonstrable value and there will be more than enough participants in it.

I know I keep harping on this but for me this is a very simple issue of math. As long as the CAF put the vast number of its eggs in the RegF basket it will keep shrinking and lose capability after capability until it becomes irrelevant and incapable of providing security for the nation. The only way to up the personnel strength and the quality and amount of equipment is to find savings in personnel costs. This requires a massive downsizing of the CAF's administrative overhead and to increase the quality and quantity of the ResF. If anyone can come up with any other viable scheme other than "increase the budget" I'd be happy to hear it and get on board.

Again very Army centric. The CAF is more than the Army.

 

[KevinB]

I suspect that if the Reserves had (modern) equipment and a defined role, that recruiting would not be so much of an issue.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I suspect that if the Reserves had (modern) equipment and a defined role, that recruiting would not be so much of an issue.

On target, 100%. One of the guys I work with in my Flt is an ex-Reg Force WO, Flight Engineer who is now a Res Sgt. The only difference is the rate of pay and amount of days he works a month, and he doesn’t have to worry about being posted or any of that. Draws his pension, still flies and is a very valued mbr of the Sqn.

Same role, same equipment. He still sits center seat on the Aurora.

 

[KevinB]

On target, 100%.

That also may solve some of the Regular Force issues.
The fact the local ARNG unit down here has more modern gear than any CAF unit outside CANSOF is a little sad.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

That also may solve some of the Regular Force issues.
The fact the local ARNG unit down here has more modern gear than any CAF unit outside CANSOF is a little sad.

I remember my first visit to Fort Knox to trg at the Mounted Warfare Simulation Centre. We were heading to the US Calvary store just off Post in a taxi being driven by an off duty SSgt. We passed a field about the size of football field, full of M1s with the gun locked rearward, parked in tight.

I said “what are those for?”. The SSgt said “oh, those are just M1s that are being turned over to War Stocks from the NG units as they get their A1’s”.

That was ‘95.

A few years later on another trip to Knox, we got to visit with the local reserve/NG Apache battalion…they’d just got back from a winter SFOR deployment.

 

[Furniture]

I suspect that if the Reserves had (modern) equipment and a defined role, that recruiting would not be so much of an issue.

I suspect you are right that it would fix most of the issues, and it's something that should be achievable for a rich country like Canada. The problem is, what roles, and how expensive is the kit? Can't be issuing the troops "Cadillacs"...

There are 38 million people in this country. Hundreds of thousand volunteer to coach hockey. We're looking for 20-25,000 at any given time. Surely we can generate that if we give them a good product to join. Will it work with what the Army currently offers? Let's just say that bad as it is we still have 10-15,000 at any given time. I have zero doubt that with a properly restructured, led and equipped force you will get the numbers needed.

I have none of the faith you do that tens of thousands of Canadians will turn up to parade in full kit just because it's shiny new kit, and the boss has done better DLN courses.

As for regulars leaving to fill out reserve units with a leavening of experience; it all depends on how you incentivize it and run it.

If you're kicking out people from their full-time job because you don't have room for them in the new smaller RegF army, what do you think would incentivize them in numbers sufficient to matter to stick around and play at their old job on the weekends?

Also, if they had what it takes to be the best leaders, they'd have been picked up by the RegF to stay on full-time...

That said, I agree that the ResF needs help, and like @KevinB said, it needs a defined realistic role. Capabilities that can be done part-time, and serve a purpose are great for them, capabilities that need full-time people to maintain skills, not so much. I also think the CAF needs to work harder to make transitioning RegF-> ResF, and ResF->RegF a lot easier.

And the cadet movement was massive and designed to teach drill and marksmanship to children so as to create a valuable precursor for a levée en masse military force capable of repelling the rapacious Americans. And not withstanding the social nature of those Militia regiments, they still produced the core of the Army's officers and other ranks that volunteered to go to war in large numbers not once but twice and who continued to volunteer to back up the regular army in the field for seven decades since.

The Militia Myth rears it's ugly head again!

Those Militia officers were on the books full-time for years before they were leading troops in battle in WWII, they were RegF by that stage, little different from the RegF Lts and Capts leading troops in Afghanistan. That they had been part of a social club prior to the war wasn't likely a significant factor in their performance during the war.

The coaching analogy was merely to say that we are a country where volunteerism and devoting one's spare time to an activity that benefits the community is not dead. Create an organization that has demonstrable value and there will be more than enough participants in it.

It's a false comparison, many volunteers with organizations for kids leave when their kids leave. They have to be up and at the rink already for their kid, might as well do something while they are there. Some stick around, but likely at about the same percentage as people who choose to be in the ResF for 20+ years.

I know I keep harping on this but for me this is a very simple issue of math. As long as the CAF put the vast number of its eggs in the RegF basket it will keep shrinking and lose capability after capability until it becomes irrelevant and incapable of providing security for the nation. The only way to up the personnel strength and the quality and amount of equipment is to find savings in personnel costs. This requires a massive downsizing of the CAF's administrative overhead and to increase the quality and quantity of the ResF. If anyone can come up with any other viable scheme other than "increase the budget" I'd be happy to hear it and get on board.

That will happen regardless of whether it's a small professional full-time force, or a social club with guns if Canadians and the GoC don't start to take defence seriously. Flipping positions to ResF might slow the degradation slightly, but eventually even those part-timers will be viewed as an expensive luxury. So rather than a small full-time force with delusions of grandeur, we'll have a slightly larger, more dispersed force of part-timers with delusions of grandeur.

Fixing the CAF requires a strong ResF, but it also requires a strong RegF, with sufficient funding and public support.

 

[FSTO]

I brought up the equipment issue at the RCN Orientation day yesterday. Angus's answer was trying to cut down the amount of signatures required to get a project through. Now before everyone piles on, Navy procurement takes years no matter what. But the Army and Air Force can be re-equipped rather rapidly if we would just accept the fact that we don't have the numbers for boutique pieces of gear. But I would bet my pension that we have a myriad of Canadian companies who are already supplying parts to LockMart and Boeing. We should just get in line and get the gear. Despite what the Procurement Minister says, we have never gotten value for money spent on defence equipment.

 

[KevinB]

I brought up the equipment issue at the RCN Orientation day yesterday. Angus's answer was trying to cut down the amount of signatures required to get a project through. Now before everyone piles on, Navy procurement takes years no matter what. But the Army and Air Force can be re-equipped rather rapidly if we would just accept the fact that we don't have the numbers for boutique pieces of gear. But I would bet my pension that we have a myriad of Canadian companies who are already supplying parts to LockMart and Boeing. We should just get in line and get the gear. Despite what the Procurement Minister says, we have never gotten value for money spent on defence equipment.

To increase that Canadian content, it helps to get in on the ground floor of programs.

 

[IKnowNothing]

This might be completely stupid (and is definitely army centric) but this issue got me thinking about other models, and the one that came to mind is the Finns. Small core of regulars, Fixed pool of active 1 year conscripts, fixed pool of reserves (last year's conscripts), massive militia pool from all prior years.

Conscription isn't going to fly, and I don't think that excessively restricted regular core is what we should be looking for, but- what about taking that graduated fixed term service, planned turnover model and applying on a smaller scale it in a way that fits in our society?

There are 300k+ Grade 12's in Canada every year, call it half that will do College/Uni. Paid education to get officers is great, but what about lowering the ask from a 2:1 service ratio to capture a short term, high tempo (relative to current PRes) pool of entry level NCM's?

Proposal- contracts for 1 year of service plus 1,2, or 3 (depending on school duration) 4 month summer stints, maybe with a couple of weekends sprinkled in. Bill it as high adventure guaranteed summer employment with partial tuition subsidy- no post grad strings attached- rather than a pact to give your 20's to the army. Have a proactive plan to use this pool to flesh out a designated unit(s) to full strength every summer, in the 8 months between summers the assignments of this pool/ these units remain static on the books for recall purposes in a time of war.

When the contract is over you have 4 exit streams - apply for a commission, enlist as NCM, find a PRes spot, hang em up. With the two RegF options members (and recruiters) would be encouraged to take their education into consideration and consider any trade CAF wide that they might be qualified for.

 

[Good2Golf]

Hey I stayed in a Marriott in Ft Benning a few weeks ago. It was darn unpleasant (for a Marriott).

While not the JW, I bet you it beats the Phenix (sic) Motor Hotel…on the 280 just west of the river…..don’t ask…

 

[daftandbarmy]

This might be completely stupid (and is definitely army centric) but this issue got me thinking about other models, and the one that came to mind is the Finns. Small core of regulars, Fixed pool of active 1 year conscripts, fixed pool of reserves (last year's conscripts), massive militia pool from all prior years.

Conscription isn't going to fly, and I don't think that excessively restricted regular core is what we should be looking for, but- what about taking that graduated fixed term service, planned turnover model and applying on a smaller scale it in a way that fits in our society?

There are 300k+ Grade 12's in Canada every year, call it half that will do College/Uni. Paid education to get officers is great, but what about lowering the ask from a 2:1 service ratio to capture a short term, high tempo (relative to current PRes) pool of entry level NCM's?

Proposal- contracts for 1 year of service plus 1,2, or 3 (depending on school duration) 4 month summer stints, maybe with a couple of weekends sprinkled in. Bill it as high adventure guaranteed summer employment with partial tuition subsidy- no post grad strings attached- rather than a pact to give your 20's to the army. Have a proactive plan to use this pool to flesh out a designated unit(s) to full strength every summer, in the 8 months between summers the assignments of this pool/ these units remain static on the books for recall purposes in a time of war.

When the contract is over you have 4 exit streams - apply for a commission, enlist as NCM, find a PRes spot, hang em up. With the two RegF options members (and recruiters) would be encouraged to take their education into consideration and consider any trade CAF wide that they might be qualified for.

I'm amazed people still think that conscript/ contract armies are a good idea, if you have a choice, having seen the Russians in action.

 

[IKnowNothing]

I'm amazed people still think that conscript/ contract armies are a good idea, if you have a choice, having seen the Russians in action.

I guess I wasn't explicit enough, but this would be volunteer as implied by "lower the ask" and "bill it as"

Edit- also, you'd think "conscription isn't going to fly" would also hint at that

Edit- we're talking an annual pool of say 500-2000 volunteers that are in for a year for BMQ, DP1, and unit training, then come back to flesh out units built around RegF members for the next 1-3 four month summers.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I'm amazed people still think that conscript/ contract armies are a good idea, if you have a choice, having seen the Russians in action.

Just what we need. A poorly trained force made up of people who don't want to be there.

Seems to be working well in Russia.

 

[KevinB]

While not the JW, I bet you it beats the Phenix (sic) Motor Hotel…on the 280 just west of the river…..don’t ask…
View attachment 74211

There is (was?) a Marriott in Phenix City…
Generally Phenix is better than Columbus in most instances, but mostly GA > AL

That looks eerily familiar to a motel I stayed in near Harpers Ferry WV. Two shooting and a separate homicide that night (first and last I spent at that hotel).