Reconstitution

[Lumber]

Lumber...for the first time in a long time...I think we are totally on the same page

A broken clock is right twice a day!

 

[Eaglelord17]

I personally know three for sure and maybe two more companies within 100kmwho can build valves to what ever spec you want. They would be willing to build one or two offs. They would charge for them but they would build them.

More then likely not on the supplier list and definitely not a central eastern company.

Someone mentioned earlier that they had some US shop make them a fitting or what not to get them back up and running.
How do we not have that capability?

We have large/medium/small machine shops across this country with experience making all kinds of one off things for various industries. Somehow the Canadian Navy has a hard time getting things. Sounds like the Navy and BC ferries have the same supply and manufacturers issues.

Ok and make a part without prints or specs?

I am a machinist, specifically a maintenance machinist. Most of what I work on is completely obsolete and hard to repair equipment. It gets very expensive very quickly.

For example we had a electric train motor which needed to be repaired (mechanical side not electrical). Long story short with no print and relying on just the skill of our machinists we fixed it, to the tune of over 300 hours work time just to get it running again. Likely cost at least 60k to get that motor working again. That wasn’t even that complex of a part.

Just because it can be done, doesn’t mean its cost effective or easily done. If you show up with no prints, with a rough part and say you want more of these, prepare for lots of expenses and thats assuming they have the machinery to properly do the job.

Even a basic pin when done as a one off can cost in the several hundred $ range depending. Its the economies of scale which makes parts cheap.

 

[markppcli]

I went on a fact finding trip for the JAG's information knowledge program to Archives Canada storage facility in Halifax. They showed us racks and racks of all the computer tapes for the Halifax class build on large-factor magnetic tape spools. The archivist told us that 1) the tape is physically disintegrating and 2) there is no computer that can read them anymore anyway.

A couple weeks ago we went hunting for LAV EIS (the fleet at the unit is a mess) and opened a locker to find boxes and boxes of slides and a projector. Trying to convince the BQ that a) this was obsolete garbage, b) no the museum wouldn’t want it, and c) it’s okay to throw it out, was a nightmare.

 

[daftandbarmy]

A couple weeks ago we went hunting for LAV EIS (the fleet at the unit is a mess) and opened a locker to find boxes and boxes of slides and a projector. Trying to convince the BQ that a) this was obsolete garbage, b) no the museum wouldn’t want it, and c) it’s okay to throw it out, was a nightmare.

Are you sure the museum wouldn't want it.... for an exhibit?

 

[markppcli]

Are you sure the museum wouldn't want it.... for an exhibit?

I don’t know if 37 year old training supplies is really the kind of thing they want. The RCA museum is actually pretty good, easily the best museum for miles around…

 

[markppcli]

Are you sure the museum wouldn't want it.... for an exhibit?

I don’t know if 37 year old training supplies is really the kind of thing they want. The RCA museum is actually pretty good, easily the best museum for miles around

 

[GR66]

I don’t know if 37 year old training supplies is really the kind of thing they want. The RCA museum is actually pretty good, easily the best museum for miles around

The best museum for miles around Shilo, MB?

 

[Blackadder1916]

A couple weeks ago we went hunting for LAV EIS (the fleet at the unit is a mess) and opened a locker to find boxes and boxes of slides and a projector. Trying to convince the BQ that a) this was obsolete garbage, b) no the museum wouldn’t want it, and c) it’s okay to throw it out, was a nightmare.

"One man's trash is another man's treasure" or so says the idiom. There may be a tendency to keep "stuff" well past its currency but that doesn't necessarily mean it is not "useful". I'm not saying that what you found should quietly be put back in the locker for that rare, rare day that may never come when someone asks the question "how did they do that back . . or "what did it look like . . . or "someone was looking for a copy of xxxx but it seems that they've all been chucked out". Old reference material has often been disposed of without any thought to preserving history. The museum may not want it because they have the same problems of space, manpower and money as everyone else, but that doesn't make it "garbage".

"how did they do that back . ."

A few years ago, I received an IM from another member on these means with that question. He was still serving at the time and had been tasked to research a particular question concerning doctrine for our corps. I looked though some of the boxes and boxes of old, outdated, obsolete references, folders, notebooks, FMPs, and "stuff" that I've packratted over the years and messaged him back with a hopefully intelligent response, citing outdated CFPs and other references as well as drawing on personal experience. He was very generous in his thanks and mentioned that some of the pubs that I cited specifically referencing the topic predated anything that they had and which had been dropped out of later versions. Whether my old fart musings actually contributed to his project, I don't know. But way too much of our history ends up in the bin.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

When the Naval Reserve had to re-learn minesweeping in the mid-90's to prepare for the MCDV, they had to refer to the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship .... .... ....(1952). The last one with the evolution in it.

Some things don't change in the military. It works and is still the solution today. I suspect how you attack a machine gun nest or put up a Bailey bridge hasn't evolved much since WWII.

 

[dimsum]

When the Naval Reserve had to re-learn minesweeping in the mid-90's to prepare for the MCDV, they had to refer to the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship .... .... ....(1952). The last one with the evolution in it.

Some things don't change in the military. It works and is still the solution today. I suspect how you attack a machine gun nest or put up a Bailey bridge hasn't evolved much since WWII.

Looks at trench lines in UKR

 

[markppcli]

"One man's trash is another man's treasure" or so says the idiom. There may be a tendency to keep "stuff" well past its currency but that doesn't necessarily mean it is not "useful". I'm not saying that what you found should quietly be put back in the locker for that rare, rare day that may never come when someone asks the question "how did they do that back . . or "what did it look like . . . or "someone was looking for a copy of xxxx but it seems that they've all been chucked out". Old reference material has often been disposed of without any thought to preserving history. The museum may not want it because they have the same problems of space, manpower and money as everyone else, but that doesn't make it "garbage".

"how did they do that back . ."

A few years ago, I received an IM from another member on these means with that question. He was still serving at the time and had been tasked to research a particular question concerning doctrine for our corps. I looked though some of the boxes and boxes of old, outdated, obsolete references, folders, notebooks, FMPs, and "stuff" that I've packratted over the years and messaged him back with a hopefully intelligent response, citing outdated CFPs and other references as well as drawing on personal experience. He was very generous in his thanks and mentioned that some of the pubs that I cited specifically referencing the topic predated anything that they had and which had been dropped out of later versions. Whether my old fart musings actually contributed to his project, I don't know. But way too much of our history ends up in the bin.

If was photo slides of AFVs. I don’t think anyone is going to be sitting there, deeply needing to understand how PowerPoint presentations were done before computers could load pictures.

The best museum for miles around Shilo, MB?

That was the joke yeah

 

[childs56]

Ok and make a part without prints or specs?

I am a machinist, specifically a maintenance machinist. Most of what I work on is completely obsolete and hard to repair equipment. It gets very expensive very quickly.

For example we had a electric train motor which needed to be repaired (mechanical side not electrical). Long story short with no print and relying on just the skill of our machinists we fixed it, to the tune of over 300 hours work time just to get it running again. Likely cost at least 60k to get that motor working again. That wasn’t even that complex of a part.

Just because it can be done, doesn’t mean its cost effective or easily done. If you show up with no prints, with a rough part and say you want more of these, prepare for lots of expenses and thats assuming they have the machinery to properly do the job.

Even a basic pin when done as a one off can cost in the several hundred $ range depending. Its the economies of scale which makes parts cheap.

The ship either gets fixed or it doesn't sail.
We should have machinists or contracted shops who can make things.
A shop who manufactures valves should be able to make a valve that is equivalent or better then a 30 years old one.
The shop I worked in made all kinds of one off. The machinists worked magic numerous times.

 

[Blackadder1916]

If was photo slides of AFVs. I don’t think anyone is going to be sitting there, deeply needing to understand how PowerPoint presentations were done before computers could load pictures.

With the Ruskies putting museum grade vehicles into battle, quality AFV recognition aids.

Seriously, agree they may be copies of photos that have been used in a thousand similar arrays but (and there's always a "but"), what if some of them are unique images? I have several boxes of slides that were made from "my" photos from Rwanda; they were done up by the Base Photo shop when I was tasked to do presentations about our time there - I wouldn't have paid for doing it in that pre-digital era. Perhaps one day I'll get around to converting the prints to digital and caching them somewhere in the cloud.

 

[markppcli]

With the Ruskies putting museum grade vehicles into battle, quality AFV recognition aids.

Seriously, agree they may be copies of photos that have been used in a thousand similar arrays but (and there's always a "but"), what if some of them are unique images? I have several boxes of slides that were made from "my" photos from Rwanda; they were done up by the Base Photo shop when I was tasked to do presentations about our time there - I wouldn't have paid for doing it in that pre-digital era. Perhaps one day I'll get around to converting the prints to digital and caching them somewhere in the cloud.

You know we have this incredible think that links basically the sim of human knowledge. Through it you can type in just about any vehicle and be gifted with hundreds of images from all possible angles. I don’t think there was some incredibly unique image of a BTR 70 on there that was going to make or break some one’s ability to identify one.

The whole “but what if we need it!” Attitude is why this pile of shut was kept, occupying an entire vehicle locker, for go knows how long. Clearing out CQ hordes of outdated, pointless shit, is one of my great joys.

 

[FJAG]

The best museum for miles around Shilo, MB?

Surprisingly it really is.

Shilo is the home station for the artillery and used to be the home of the Royal Canadian Artillery School. Years back when they built the RCHA complex in Shilo they moved the guns out of the old gun park building, renovated it significantly and moved the museum out of old H Huts into it. At the same time they had an overhaul of how they handled their exhibits, which are extensive.

Manitoba has many local and regional museums but you need to go all the way to Winnipeg before you find anything that compares to or exceeds Shilo's.

It's easy to knock Shilo, but it has a lot of positive things going for it, not the least of which is a mechanized infantry battalion and an artillery regiment collocated next to a large training area. - Add a tank squadron and you'd be able to do some really good live fire, battle group level combined arms training (like the Germans did for a decade and a half)

 

[FJAG]

A few years ago, I received an IM from another member on these means with that question. He was still serving at the time and had been tasked to research a particular question concerning doctrine for our corps. I looked though some of the boxes and boxes of old, outdated, obsolete references, folders, notebooks, FMPs, and "stuff" that I've packratted over the years and messaged him back with a hopefully intelligent response, citing outdated CFPs and other references as well as drawing on personal experience.

Unfortunately that's how it mostly works in the CAF. You know someone, who knows something, and still has access to it. While it's great that one can do that from time-to-time, its not an enterprise-wide knowledge management system.

DND tends to throw knowledge management and records management expertise under the bus anytime that there is a manpower challenge. Computers should have helped with this but there is no overarching system to bring the thousands of data silos under one searchable data management system. What there is is only accessible with some of the least proficient search engines known to man.

For the most part, there is no appetite for capturing old data. I presented this challenge of how to capture the years of paper records and old shared drives JAG maintained a decade and a half ago and the decision was simply to start up management of records from the day we flipped the switch on the new system. It's a monstrously expensive job to reach back and digitize and organize legacy data with little predictability as to how useful the effort would be.

There are better finding aids to obtaining archived information from the 1800s--when the volume was small--than that from the mass of records from two decades ago.

 

[GR66]

If was photo slides of AFVs. I don’t think anyone is going to be sitting there, deeply needing to understand how PowerPoint presentations were done before computers could load pictures.

If they were really OLD slides of AFVs then maybe we could use them for Russian AFV recognition?

Edit: @Blackadder1916 beat me to it!

 

[markppcli]

If they were really OLD slides of AFVs then maybe we could use them for Russian AFV recognition?

Or we could use google, power point, and a projector. Since we have all of that

 

[GR66]

Or we could use google, power point, and a projector. Since we have all of that

 

[Navy_Pete]

The ship either gets fixed or it doesn't sail.
We should have machinists or contracted shops who can make things.
A shop who manufactures valves should be able to make a valve that is equivalent or better then a 30 years old one.
The shop I worked in made all kinds of one off. The machinists worked magic numerous times.

Okay then, I guess none of the machinists, manufacturers or others working directly for DND, the shipyards, valve manufacturers and other heavy industries involved in this know what they are doing, so you should put in a bid.