Red/ Green/ White Poppies- Does The Colour Matter?- Merged

[Edward Campbell]

...
From the article:

Today Mowat's views on remembrance are uncompromising and controversial: he eschews what he calls the glorification of war in many Remembrance Day events and military anniversaries. He says the media have elevated war into an act of heroism and prestige.

He also says he won't feel neglected if nobody remembers his own personal wartime service. "I escaped alive with my skin, and that's reward enough."

What matters is to remember war, he says, "as the abomination that it is."

For those who don't know, Mowat was an infantry officer who fought up the boot of Italy.

It's a free country. People have a right to wear what they want - we have a right to disagree with what they say.
...

Indeed.  I disagree with Mowat because he is intellectually dishonest.

It Farley Mowat was as capable at reasoning as he is at storytelling then he would understand that Remembrance Day is not about war, glorious, abominable or whatever else – it is about sacrifice, specifically the supreme sacrifice.

Remembrance Day has one, sole focus: those who were killed in war.  It is not about veterans – they started it so that they could pay homage to their fallen comrades, not so that they could enjoy the applause of living grateful fellow citizens.  Nor is Remembrance Day about bereaved mothers, widows and children – we acknowledge that their wounds may still be raw, after years, months or even just a few weeks; we acknowledge that their pain is, perhaps, deeper than most of us can understand.  Remembrance Day is, especially, not about telling children about the ‘horrors of war’ – real as they are.  Remembrance Day is about contemplating sacrifice: sacrifice painfully made, bravely made, freely made.

Mowat doesn’t acknowledge that because he is a fool.  He may have been a brave fool, he is certainly entitled to be a fool.  He helped earn the right for all of us to disagree with things we misunderstand – we are Canadians, after all.

 

[George Wallace]

The best tactic I have found has been telling the truth, "NO person on earth wants peace more then a soldier, because it's the soldiers who fight the wars not those whose oppose them"

Others will always find a a way to mock or corrupt traditions they can't fathom. Forget the white poppies let them mock us because in the end our blood has bought them that right and others will know that and feel shamed for those who think traditions of honor can be changed to meet their agenda.

Je me souviens mais amis, and I needn't trouble myself with those who don't bother to think past themselves.

That just brought to my mind the difference between the two.  We are proud to Serve and wear the Red Poppy to remember those who have gone before us and those who are yet to come, who may have shed their blood to maintain Peace.  As HoM states, no one wants Peace more than the soldiers who may have the unsavory task of fighting a war to maintain the Peace.

Those who want to wear a white poppy and protest for Peace, are wearing the right colour.  They are cowards, who hide behind the skirts of those who live in the safe shadows of those who have the courage to put thier lives on the line to keep them safe.  They are only children.  White is a good colour for them.  It means that they have never had to get their hands dirty in the Labour to earn Peace.  They want everything for free, but have not the courage to actually step forward to work for it. 

 

[armyvern]

George,

+10.

 

[Teflon]

In todays Edmonton Journal:

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=b6082418-4abd-4d4d-b11d-94472f6d8425

Nip white poppies in the bud, legion says
Antiwar symbol 'illegal, disturbing'
Bill Mah, The Edmonton Journal
Published: Wednesday, November 08, 2006
EDMONTON - Call it the war of the poppies.

On one side, antiwar activists offer white poppies to symbolize a desire for peace.

On the other side, a veterans group says white poppies infringe on a registered symbol -- the red poppies sold by the Royal Canadian Legion in advance of Remembrance Day to honour Canada's war dead. The red poppy has been used in Canada since 1921.


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Patti Hartnagel, a member of Edmonton Women In Black, an anti-war group that is selling white poppies, says the red and white symbols don't have to be in conflict with each other, but instead could be worn together.
John Lucas, The Journal

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Font: ****"It's taking a symbol of sacrifice and using it to represent a political position," said Rod Stewart, a vice-president of the legion's Alberta-Northwest Territories Command.

"November 11th is Remembrance Day. It is the one day set aside where we show our respect to the war dead. We don't get judgmental about why they died or where they died or for whom they died."

Stewart said the white poppies "piggyback" an inappropriate political message onto Remembrance Day. He said a more appropriate day might be Sept. 21, the International Day of Peace, and suggested the groups sell olive branches instead of poppies.

The legion issued a statement condemning the white poppy campaign Tuesday. "This practice is not only disturbing, but illegal," said the press release.

The poppy, in any form other than a real poppy, is a registered symbol of the legion and can't be used without permission, Stewart said.

He said the legion will ask the groups selling white poppies to stop. Legal action has been used in the past to enforce trademark infringement, he said.

White poppies -- with the word "peace" in the centre -- are being sold by Edmonton Women in Black, an anti-war group, and Earth's General Store, a retailer known for its environmental and social justice stances.

Patti Hartnagel, a member of Women In Black, was taken aback when told of the legion's statement.

"They are suggesting ... we are suggesting that these white poppies are an alternative to the traditional red poppy, and that's not we're saying," she said.

The two symbols can be worn together, Hartnagel said.

"How can you not respect the sacrifice of the veterans? But also, add a proactive element to that."

She said her group takes donations in exchange for the poppies to make contributions to schools in Afghanistan and to other charities abroad.

The white poppy was created by the Women's Co-operative Guild in England in 1933.

"The Guild stressed that the white poppy was not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War -- a war in which many of the women lost husbands, brothers, sons and lovers," says a website run by an anti-war group, Peace Pledge Union.

Michael Kalmanovitch, owner of the Earth's General Store, said he began importing the white poppies from Peace Pledge Union three years ago.

But on Tuesday he received a phone call from the legion's Dominion Command, its national office, telling him the white poppies aren't allowed to be sold in Canada and that Peace Pledge Union was told that last year.

"Then they asked if we're going to continue to sell these things. I said 'Yes, we are until such time as we get an official notice that we are in contravention of trademark laws or whatever.' "

Of an initial order of 200, he had about 30 or 40 left on Tuesday afternoon.

Kalmanovitch said even some veterans have purchased white poppies at the store.

bmah@thejournal.canwest.com

SOUNDING BOARD

Do you agree the Royal Canadian Legion should be the only group allowed to sell poppies? E-mail city@thejournal.canwest.

com. Please put "poppies" in the subject line. We'll publish selected responses.




© The Edmonton Journal 2006

 

[Signalman150]

My answer to the Edmonton Journal's 'Sounding Board' question, sent moments ago.

*****


Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:40 AM
To: city@thejournal.canwest.com
Subject: Poppies


I took some time to familiarize myself with the White Poppy, which originated in Britain. It comes from a tradition almost as old as the Red Poppy emblem (1921 for the latter, 1933 for the former). From the beginning the White Poppy has been strictly a symbol of political activism. The Women's Cooperative Guild--which first issued them--was dedicated to social and economic reform in Britain. Eventually their campaign was taken over by the Peace Pledge Union, and the White Poppy became a symbol of the pacifist movement.

In contrast, the Red Poppy has been a sign of Remembrance, and a means to raise funds to assist veterans, ever since it was first issued. Neither of these pursuits is political in nature.  One honours those who have sacrificed their lives in pursuit of freedom, the other supports those who have served their country in time of need.

The PPU website makes it clear that money raised from the sale of White Poppies is not used for relief of the suffering or needy.  Rather it is used to finance their ongoing political activities.  Part of their agenda includes posting articles on their website calling into question the usefulness of Remembrance Day (referring to it as "a sentimental get together"), and denigrating the efforts of the Royal British Legion in providing relief to veterans.

Remembrance Day is the one day of the year set aside to honour our war dead and our veterans.  The PPU have chosen instead to usurp November 11th in order to raise funds in support of their political agenda, and have perverted a powerful symbol of Remembrance to do so.

I have no quarrel with their cause, but I find their methods despicable. In response to the Edmonton Journal's question ""Do you agree the Royal Canadian Legion should be the only group allowed to sell poppies?", my answer is an emphatic 'Yes'!

*****

FWIW.

 

[McG]

Peace is a noble cause.  However, as a cause, it should not displace our memorial of the fallen.

Bunch of dope smoking hippie
I just want to go there buy them all and trow them in the garbage.
It remembrance day and not peace day. People would do anything to have publicity

While this is not the only generalization on who might wear a white poppy, here is the generic tone & content reminder on ad hominem: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/51970.0.html

But Kalmanovitch said he has no intention to stop distributing the white symbols. He said he wears both versions

Then I hope he does not give out a single one of his poppies without also encouraging the receiver to also get the red poppy.

MCG, also those who have survived.

The day is to remember the fallen.  Let’s thank the survivors & hope for peace through the rest of the year.

 

[HItorMiss]

the internation peace day is September 21 and not November 11
http://www.internationaldayofpeace.org/

Right you are, September 21st is indeed the international day of peace, you'll notice I didn't say it was "THE" day of peace simply "A" day of peace. As I stated a day of peace in the minds of many who wish they hadn't lost friends/family etc etc to that which we should abhor most WAR. I know I'm not a fan of war and again this year will likely cry shameless tears at thoughts of my friends who died doing what was needed.

On that note any further pissing contest like comments should be done in PM with me as I will not detract from the significance of this thread further.

 

[Journeyman]

For those who don't know, Mowat was an infantry officer who fought up the boot of Italy.

Just a minor correction...Farley Mowat was an infantry officer in the Hastings & Prince Edward Regiment, but he served as their Intelligence Officer. Paper cuts were a great threat. 

 

[HItorMiss]

You would know...... ;D

 

[Kat Stevens]

Oh, SNAP!  No you di'int!

 

[HItorMiss]

Yah I went there....I said that  ;D

 

[geo]

Just a minor correction...Farley Mowat was an infantry officer in the Hastings & Prince Edward Regiment, but he served as their Intelligence Officer. Paper cuts were a great threat. 

Read "the Regiment" a long, long time ago.
If memory serves me right, Farley Mowat wound up the war as an Int officer but was a platoon officer before that.

Methinks there were more than paper cuts to his CV

 

[midget-boyd91]

White poppies should not be worn.. rememberance day is a day to remember our veterans not a day for people to state their political opinions.

 

[midget-boyd91]

just changing something from my above post, but..
stating political opinions is fine, but throwing it out where it can offend people (ie. our veterans) is not right.

 

[Redeye]

Just a minor correction...Farley Mowat was an infantry officer in the Hastings & Prince Edward Regiment, but he served as their Intelligence Officer. Paper cuts were a great threat. 

Actually, he started as a platoon commander in A Coy, he didn't become the IO until later on.  It might have been just before Assoro when Bat Cocklin was killed, but I'm not sure, I'll have to pull my trusty copy of The Regiment out to see.

 

[geo]

by the time he became the Int O, Farley Mowat was somewhat dissilusioned with the war & appears to have been somewhat reckless in exercising his duties in Holland.

 

[Freddy Chef]

Protest = “All talk, no action. All attitude, no guts.”

George Wallace was spot on, referring to the white-poppy-peace-protestors as whining infants that want their folks to hand them everything on a silver platter. Their ‘efforts’ amount to nothing but a few seconds of media attention, ‘A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and colour, signifying nothing.’

‘To be or not to be…whether tis nobler…to suffer outrageous fortune…or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them.’

“Is it better to curse the darkness, or to light the candle?”

Veterans and serving members of the military were/are willing to fight for what’s right and sacrifice their lives in the process. The red poppy is to honour those that made the ultimate sacrifice. Any such mockery of the red poppy is an insult.

Sacrifice = “Actions speak louder than words.”

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

I think that the white poppies are a noble idea.  I like the idea of humanity moving beyond its current obsession with violence and destruction towards a more civilized planet.

Imagine a world where we could sit down with the Americans and talk about how it makes us feel bad when they try to annex large areas of our land and that would get them to stop. (And saves us from building military bases in the high north and getting those extra ships to protect our territory)

Imagine a world where no country would ever think of using force to improve their standard of living at the expense of other nations/peoples. No more border skirmishes for control over water, no more ethnic cleansings and no country would go to war for control over territory that was theirs.  It would have to be a world without oppression, without tyrants, without hatred or violence. It would have to be a world with out greed or hunger where everyone had not just the basic life needs met but felt peace and security and the ability to better themselves and their community peacefully.

      If wearing a white poppy would express my desire for such a world I would wear one. But it doesn’t, I feel it says something else.

I was a hard and fast NDPer, until they got obsessed with the war in Iraq.  People that I’ve known for years, people that I’ve protested with have set themselves on the task of getting us out of Iraq (they say Iraq, I’m sure they mean Afghanistan I think they can’t tell the difference) and they will not stop until every single Canadian soldier is home safely. The grass roots of the left, NDP and miscellaneous organizations have started a fairly hurtful campaign in their noble quest to save us from an 'unnecessary war'.

They have publicly called us terrorists, questioned our true intentions for being in Afghanistan, implied we are mindless indiscriminant killers and other slanderous things. In private, I have heard much worse.

Right now, I see this as another “we are fighting a wrong war and are soldiers are bad guys” action on the part of the left; at least that is how I’d feel if I saw someone wearing one. Maybe I’m being to sensitive and that the white poppies are only meant to represent a desire for peace – but having been called a mindless blood thirsty terrorist -  I’ll just have to accept that I’m a little touchy when it comes to the political left commenting further on the military.

 

[Journeyman]

Actually, he started as a platoon commander in A Coy, he didn't become the IO until later on

Geo, Redeye.....ack. (since we're building a hijack here  ;D )
Yes, Mowat did see combat commanding a rifle platoon. During the lion's share of the HastyP's slogging up the boot, however, he was in Bn HQ. Not demeaning his record, just ensuring historical accuracy.

 

[KSBCRUCIAL]

Bunch of dope smoking hippie
I just want to go there buy them all and trow them in the garbage.
It remembrance day and not peace day. People would do anything to have publicity

Okay.
Just to clear things up. Calling people who are anti-war, or protestors, or a white poppy wearer a hippie, is as good an argument as them calling YOU a conservative, redneck, trigger happy, gun freak. You're going to have to remember that to fight thier logic, you're going to have to use more than the same insulting strategies they are using. Generalizations and steriotyping won't get your point across, and using such typical "conservative right" language puts you on the same level as them.

Second, I agree, that the white poppies are a total insult to the fallen to whom we are paying respects on nov 11th. I believe that too many people are using rememberance day as a way to showcase political and social views, and protest and push thier own social agendas. My whole life, rememberance day has been a really important day for my whole family. And I am always there to remember the comrades my dad has lost, and that indeed I'm sure many of you have lost in service. I'm thankful for the fact that my father has instilled in me pride, and knowledge, for what the fallen have done for us. I think however, we also, need to feel sorry for and educate, those who are selfish, and uneducated enough, to use rememberance day as a platform for protest. Think about it, no person, who knows the meaning and importance of rememberance day in their right mind would protest it. So maybe, the next time someone makes a negative comment about rememberance day or wears a white poppie, you should EDUCATE them, on why this day is so important. If they're so convinced that we think this day is about glorifying war, then maybe, be peacful to them and show them otherwise, instead of flinging insults such as "liberal hippie douche" at them. I'm just as outraged as all of you are about this. But I'm not going to let my anger about the whole situation get the best of me.

Perhaps invite some of those opposing rememberance day to one of the local ceremonies, or relate a personal story of yours about war to them, and make a personal connection, maybe making them realize that they as well, need to acknowledge the importance of this day. Be kind about this, as rememberance day, in my opinion, is most certainly not about fighting, and encourage people to change thier minds. By being agressive as I quoted above...you are only giving them FUEL for the fire, you are only giving them reason to attack you.