Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]

[McG]

As a final consideration, do review the DGCFGA site to which  MJP posted a link.  It has all the guidance that you will need.

If you do get to the point of submitting a redress of grievance (in writing and signed), it is your CO who is the authority and nobody in your CoC can refuse that redress between you and the CO.

 

[Sunnyns]

I work in a small unit and I'm not interested in asking around about putting a re-dress.

I've been a Sgt 3 years, one high ready PER and one outstanding.

From what I've been hearing I've dropped from 3 spots.  My MWO who loves to leave the WO out of things and manage everything himself.  Meaning if something is passed to the WO he gets upset if I have not notified him.  I'm following chain of command.  Tells me to tell the Maj that everything is ok when it's not, this is so she's happy.

I did sign a PDR and did not agree with what was on it.  Now that I've found out that I am not outstanding and I'm guessing might not even be a high ready.  As many of you know something like this can take years to get back up.  I'd like to know if anyone has re-dressed a PER with sucess.

 

[Sf2]

1). There's no such thing as an outstanding PER. There is developing, ready, and immediate.

2). If you got a high ready in your first year as a Sgt, then your CoC mis-wrote your PER.

 

[Sunnyns]

My mistake, I meant immediate.

Whatever the reason, I worked hard.  I was written up as ready.  Without going into it too much.  This past year there were things that should not have made it drop.

What I would like to do, is talk to someone about what is going on.  I don't mean a buddy either. Talking to my boss will not help.

 

[Occam]

2). If you got a high ready in your first year as a Sgt, then your CoC mis-wrote your PER.

I don't recall the CFPAS policy saying anything like that...

 

[McG]

I did sign a PDR and did not agree with what was on it.

Did you raise this concern with the CoC at that time?

 

[Sunnyns]

I did talk to the WO and was told that what was written was BS and not to worry but he had to show me this.  Now I found out there is reason for concern.  I am going to talk the WO again and see what happens I guess.

 

[392]

  I'd like to know if anyone has re-dressed a PER with sucess.

I helped one of my subordinate's spouse with her PER redress and she won. It all comes down to substantiation - as in can YOU substantiate WHY you should have been scored higher? In her case, it was glaringly obvious once she produced written proof to back up the score she should have gotten.

 

[Shamrock]

I work in a small unit and I'm not interested in asking around about putting a re-dress.

I've been a Sgt 3 years, one high ready PER and one outstanding.

From what I've been hearing I've dropped from 3 spots.  My MWO who loves to leave the WO out of things and manage everything himself.  Meaning if something is passed to the WO he gets upset if I have not notified him.  I'm following chain of command.  Tells me to tell the Maj that everything is ok when it's not, this is so she's happy.

I did sign a PDR and did not agree with what was on it.  Now that I've found out that I am not outstanding and I'm guessing might not even be a high ready.  As many of you know something like this can take years to get back up.  I'd like to know if anyone has re-dressed a PER with sucess.

http://www.cfga-agfc.forces.gc.ca/gri-pla/index-eng.asp

 

[MARS]

I work in a small unit and I'm not interested in asking around about putting a re-dress.

I've been a Sgt 3 years, one high ready PER and one outstanding.

From what I've been hearing I've dropped from 3 spots.  My MWO who loves to leave the WO out of things and manage everything himself.  Meaning if something is passed to the WO he gets upset if I have not notified him.  I'm following chain of command.  Tells me to tell the Maj that everything is ok when it's not, this is so she's happy.

I did sign a PDR and did not agree with what was on it.  Now that I've found out that I am not outstanding and I'm guessing might not even be a high ready.  As many of you know something like this can take years to get back up.  I'd like to know if anyone has re-dressed a PER with sucess.

You can't redress the PER until you have actually received it, so you have a couple of steps to take between then and now.

Yes, PER redresses can be successful.  I have assisted a few sailors in this regard, sometimes getting everything the member wanted changed, and sometimes not.  I have also been on the other side of the fence, analyzing a redress and drafting my CO's response to NOT grant certain portions of a PER redress.  The success of a potential redress depends on a variety of factors, not the least of which is documentation.

However, before you get there, you need to employ some dispute-resolution methods to resolve the issues at the lowest possible level.. I think CFPAS refers to this somewhere.

The first step is to discuss you issues PRIOR to being issued your PER.  That needs to happen with your supervisor and/or whoever is writing and signing Section 4.  That likely means talking to your boss, which you indicated wont help, but that is the correct method.  Doing that ensures that there are no surprises on your PER and is the preferred method because it saves time during the final stages of PER season, when the effort to write a PER has already been expended and everyone is up against deadlines to get the PER submitted to higher.

The second option is to discuss these same concerns at the time your PER is issued.  Again, resolving it at the lowest possible level. 

Last season I had a Leading Seaman who disagreed with some of his scoring. (Funny how few people have issues with the narrative, which is what, when I chaired the National-level merit boards, I spent most of my time reading...)  The LS's Department Head was absent, so I sat with him and his supervisor.  I started by asking him what scores he wanted changed, and to what.  He was looking for Mastered scores in some areas.  I asked him if he had read the CFPAS word pictures associated with the scores he wanted changed.  He had not.  So, here was this guy who wanted his dots moved to the right, but he had no idea what the actual expectations were.  So, I spent over an hour going through EACH score - even the ones he wasn't contesting, so he could see what the expectations were.  Then I asked him to describe to me examples of his performance in each area and then let him look at the word pictures and justify to me why he felt he has mastered particular areas. 

it was an eye opening experience for that guy.  I did agree to change a couple of his scores, but refused to change an equal number, because he couldn't articulate to me, his Commanding Officer, how he had mastered a particular category.  It is a difficult process when the word pictures are staring you in the face, but he left the meeting satisfied that he wasn't being seen off.  He wasn't completely happy, but he realized his own expectations did not meet the stark requirements of the word pictures.

I am not saying you have unrealistic expectations, just that you need to do your homework before any meeting or redress procedure.  Know exactly what you want and be able to concisely explain how you did A,B and C, thus warranting whatever score you feel you deserve. 

Either way, these steps are taken before any consideration of a redress is taken.  If talking with your boss wont help, then either you have larger issues with your CoC, or you and your boss have different expectations on how you performed.  Either you have met the CFPAS word picture requirements, or you haven't. 

Hope that helps, even though it doesn't provide you with an easy method of resolving your issue.

 

[Sunnyns]

Thank you for all of the responses, I've written quite a few PDR's and PER's and had to give bad news to some and good news to most.  I've never been on this side of things.

I agree with doing this at the lowest lv possible which is why I'm looking at things now.

Trust me I'll be doing my homework.  Even if only a few of the issues are corrected it would be better then what I am sure is coming.

Thank you again guys for all your help.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

2). If you got a high ready in your first year as a Sgt, then your CoC mis-wrote your PER.

Completely incorrect.  I acknowledge that as a Griffon pilot you may have written a few PERs in your 17 years of service, but what you have said is wrong.  The system is designed to allow the supervisor to give a true assessment of the subordinate.  It is quite conceivable that a member can show outstanding potential in their first year in rank - in fact I have seen it (and assigned it) many times, and it is likely that I have seen a few more PERs than you have.

Mind you, my first PER in the last three ranks has been an MOI or equivalent - perhaps my CofC has been getting it wrong all along as well.  :dunno:

 

[Shamrock]

Mind you, my first PER in the last three ranks has been an MOI or equivalent - perhaps my CofC has been getting it wrong all along as well.  :dunno:

Time to redress them as you have not received procedural fairness.

 

[PuckChaser]

2). If you got a high ready in your first year as a Sgt, then your CoC mis-wrote your PER.

Thats whats wrong with the PER system. You're screwing the member who may show great potential because of some unfounded belief that they can't possibly be good at their job after being promoted. I know a member who, after working Cl B in a position for most of a year, CT'd to the RegF in the same position and same rank who had their PER knocked down because "he can't have that good of a PER for his first RegF one". Completely insane.

 

[Sf2]

Thats whats wrong with the PER system. You're screwing the member who may show great potential because of some unfounded belief that they can't possibly be good at their job after being promoted. I know a member who, after working Cl B in a position for most of a year, CT'd to the RegF in the same position and same rank who had their PER knocked down because "he can't have that good of a PER for his first RegF one". Completely insane.

I would argue that what you just said shows a flaw in the per system. People don't know the difference between performance and potential. Sure, a guy is a rock star at his job, but that doesn't necessarily imply potential at the next rank.  Some guys are hard workers. But that doesn't mean promotion.

Yes,  I've written many per's, but there are layers in the system that prevent them from being written in isolation. They are scrutinized at many levels of the CoC. So while my views on potential vs performance may be skewed in your opinion,  my PER's have been duly scrutinized to where I have never had a subordinate disagree with what I've handed to them, and that is my ultimate goal.

The door swings both ways. You can also screw a member if you firewall him when it wasn't necessarily justified.  But again that's what the review boards are for.

Long story short, everyone has different views on how PER's should be written. Hence the reason for the redress system. It provides an honest broker in an otherwise very subjective process.

In addition....we all know the PER system is flawed.  It is NOT an honest assessment of your subordinates.  You start with an honest assessment, then it gets up or downgraded based on where they finish in the rankings.  We all know that's how it works.  We've all sat on the ranking boards with our pile of brag sheets.

I've had to write a guy up as an immediate, only to downgrade him to a high ready solely because our unit has already met the imposed quota of immediates.  Yup, happens all the time, and it sucks.

To OP - my apologies if my original response came off as harsh.  I am just of the opinion that there is ALWAYS room for development towards a high ready or immediate, and if guys are shooting to the moon on their first go, perhaps their assessment wasn't so honest.  But there's always the exception......Good luck in your redress is it does come to that.

Cheers

 

[DAA]

I would argue that what you just said shows a flaw in the per system. People don't know the difference between performance and potential. Sure, a guy is a rock star at his job, but that doesn't necessarily imply potential at the next rank.  Some guys are hard workers. But that doesn't mean promotion.
Yes,  I've written many per's, but there are layers in the system that prevent them from being written in isolation. They are scrutinized at many levels of the CoC. So while my views on potential vs performance may be skewed in your opinion,  my PER's have been duly scrutinized to where I have never had a subordinate disagree with what I've handed to them, and that is my ultimate goal.
The door swings both ways. You can also screw a member if you firewall him when it wasn't necessarily justified.  But again that's what the review boards are for.
Long story short, everyone has different views on how PER's should be written. Hence the reason for the redress system. It provides an honest broker in an otherwise very subjective process.
In addition....we all know the PER system is flawed.  It is NOT an honest assessment of your subordinates.  You start with an honest assessment, then it gets up or downgraded based on where they finish in the rankings.  We all know that's how it works.  We've all sat on the ranking boards with our pile of brag sheets.
I've had to write a guy up as an immediate, only to downgrade him to a high ready solely because our unit has already met the imposed quota of immediates.  Yup, happens all the time, and it sucks.
To OP - my apologies if my original response came off as harsh.  I am just of the opinion that there is ALWAYS room for development towards a high ready or immediate, and if guys are shooting to the moon on their first go, perhaps their assessment wasn't so honest.  But there's always the exception......Good luck in your redress is it does come to that.

First and foremost, supervisors need to READ the CFPAS instructions, especially on the section pertaining to "PDR's" and it's not being done.  It's a Performance DEVELOPMENT Review.  That is the time to guide, nurture and lead your people to future success!!!  So come PER time, there should be NO surprises!  There are NO "imposed quotas" with regards to "Immediate" PERs, that went by the way side years ago.

Units that impose such a thing are doing a disservice to their subordinates!!!

 

[Sf2]

DDA. I wholeheartedly agree with you on both points. That said, the quotas are not unit imposed. And there are ways around them ifjustified .

 

[TwoTonShackle]

I don't have the CFPAS handbook with me, but there is a section that deals with replacement PERs.  Basically you have 60 days from the date you sign your PER to request a replacement PER.  This is an alternative to a Redress and allows everyone to save face.

What I suggest is that when you sign your PER, take a copy and review it for a day or two.  Get all your ducks in a row using your own notes and word picture book based on your rank.  Request a follow up meeting with your chain of command and put everything on the table.  If you are still not satisfied with the results then submit a Redress.  This way if it goes to redress you have the fact that you attempted ADR prior to it's submission.

 

[TCM621]

Completely incorrect.  I acknowledge that as a Griffon pilot you may have written a few PERs in your 17 years of service, but what you have said is wrong.  The system is designed to allow the supervisor to give a true assessment of the subordinate.  It is quite conceivable that a member can show outstanding potential in their first year in rank - in fact I have seen it (and assigned it) many times, and it is likely that I have seen a few more PERs than you have.

Mind you, my first PER in the last three ranks has been an MOI or equivalent - perhaps my CofC has been getting it wrong all along as well.  :dunno:

I knew a guy who got prompted on his first PER in Rank.

 

[Journeyman]

I knew a guy who got prompted on his first PER in Rank.

Really?  What was he prompted to do?  op: