Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]

[kratz]

Whether it calls for a IC or RW is a subjective decision.  They could have charged you.

Warnings are an administrative action and do not preclude the CoC from persuing charges.

 

[Benzyme]

Oh, and all the while, your posting and reading from a DWAN computer during working hours.

I've been allotted time to work on my grievance and do some research. Thank you very much 


So what you're saying is, I should suck it up, because that's what's better for me?
Have you read QR&O Vol1 Chapter 7? Clearly states:

(A) Subsection 29(4) of the National Defence Act states that a member may not be penalized for exercising the right to submit a grievance.

The DWAN is not a Secret or Top Secret system.
I asked my MWO during my RW debrief, why I was getting a RW versus IC. He said "Because the CWO said it would be an RW". That's all  I know of the decision.



You seem like you're definately part of the problem when it comes to trying to get proper justice.

There is nothing wrong with putting in a grievance when you feel you've been wronged and clear statement in DAODs state this isn't the proper procedure.

Okay, that clears things up immensely.  Sometimes the people writing up RWs and C&Ps don't know there's a subtle difference in wording and methodology between trying to access a blocked site, and trying to circumvent the firewall to access a blocked site.  They've used the correct description.

Trying to use a proxy server is definitely up there on the "don't do it" scale.  When you received the "site blocked" message, that should have warned you that someone, for whatever reason, has decided that you shouldn't be able to access this through the internet portal.  Second guessing that determination by trying to access the site by using a proxy server is a pretty flagrant violation of acceptable use policy.

Whether it calls for a IC or RW is a subjective decision.  They could have charged you.

I still don't know if I'm getting charged for it. They can give you Administrative Action as well as Disciplinary Action for the same offense.

Is it really subjective though? Isn't IC the first line of admin action for a reason?

 

[PuckChaser]

Is it really subjective though? Isn't IC the first line of admin action for a reason?

Then how can people go immediately to C&P for some issues?

 

[OldSolduer]

If I were your CoC you would be charged. It's disobedience of a lawful command to start, and let's go from there.

And you could be served a Recorded Warning as well.

 

[DAA]

So you received an "IC" some years ago for tardiness, which means "multiple" incidents.  Then C&P for drug related issues, which probably was not at the issuance of your CoC but rather DMCA after a thorough review and now an RW for IT related issues.  That sounds like 3 x Conduct related deficiencies, so I am rather surprised that an "AR" is not currently in progress or it could be but you're just not aware of it, yet.....

There is no requirement to be given an IC prior to an RW nor prior to C&P.  It is all based on the gravity/severity of the observed deficiency and as mentioned above, you obviously saw the "firewall" notice/block but still made some sort of attempt to bypass that, so it's the same as being told "don't go there or else" and by your own admission, you still tried.

I'd cut my losses and go into hiding......

 

[OldSolduer]

I think your lucky that you have not been given a Notification of Intent to Release.

By your OWN words you have an issue with obeying orders.....like be on time. Don't do drugs and don't try to bypass firewalls.

 

[Occam]

Warnings are an administrative action and do not preclude the CoC from persuing charges.

Yes, I realize that, I was simply implying that they should be happy it was only an administrative action.

 

[captloadie]

There is probably a few other factors that are being left out. If you know guys who did similar or worse things, than it is likely the CoC has made a decree that all further instances will be dealt with more harshly. Was it handed down in orders to remind members of the Regs? Was there a recent, or a standard, entry in the RO's highlighting IT policies? There are many factors that could lead the CoC to start off at an RW.

Or it could be the CWO realizing that you have run afoul the system recently, and still aren't getting it.

Oh, and even members who receive coins and other honours and awards can be shitpumps on a day to day basis, interspersed with moments worthy of recognition.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So what you're saying is, I should suck it up, because that's what's better for me?
Have you read QR&O Vol1 Chapter 7? Clearly states:

Once more, you've totally missed the point.

The DWAN is not a Secret or Top Secret system.

I said secure system. It seems your attention to detail gets you in trouble. Not an accusation, just an observation.

You seem like you're definately part of the problem when it comes to trying to get proper justice.

There is nothing wrong with putting in a grievance when you feel you've been wronged and clear statement in DAODs state this isn't the proper procedure.

See you still don't get it. You weren't wronged. You broke the rules and received an administrative action for it. It could have been worse, but the CoC was perfectly within their rights to impose the RW on you.

I'm going to go out on a limb, but it's damn sturdy and not too high off the ground.

You're not going to win this, but that's just my long experienced relationship with these matters. Not necessarily to final outcome.

It's not about the redress, it's about what hill you want to die on and for what reason.

By the way there sunshine, if you had even the slightest idea of my time on BOTH sides of the military justice system, you wouldn't be tossing out the ad hominems about me and that system.

 

[DAA]

Was it handed down in orders to remind members of the Regs? Was there a recent, or a standard, entry in the RO's highlighting IT policies? There are many factors that could lead the CoC to start off at an RW.

I do believe, that every day when we log into the DWAN (Ctrl, Alt, Delete), the "IT Acceptable Use Policy" is the very first thing that comes up, so that in itself is considered to be fair warning.  Whether you choose to read it or not, is another thing.

It's not about the redress, it's about what hill you want to die on and for what reason.

Good advice.  You could very well be digging yourself an even deeper hole, that you may not be able to get out of!

 

[Benzyme]

Then how can people go immediately to C&P for some issues?

It's clearly defined in DAOD 5019-4 which violations go straight to C&P and which don't.

Any drug related offense is straight C&P 12 months for example. Regardless of gravity.

My violation is not defined in that regulation as an automatic RW or C&P.


Anyways, I think I'm getting the general concensus.

Bend over, hold on tight to ankles, and don't ever complain about what ensues next.

Copy all, thanks for the help.

 

[Scott]

Anyways, I think I'm getting the general concensus.

Bend over, hold on tight to ankles, and don't ever complain about what ensues next.

Copy all, thanks for the help.

You're sure showing that you learned from all of this, regardless of actions taken against you.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Anyways, I think I'm getting the general concensus.

Bend over, hold on tight to ankles, and don't ever complain about what ensues next.

Copy all, thanks for the help.

Don't pout.

There's a time and place to fight and fight hard.

This isn't it.

 

[Occam]

Just because the DAOD doesn't explicitly list your behaviour as being an automatic RW or C&P, doesn't preclude the CoC from summarily elevating it to that level.  It's their judgment as to the severity of the conduct deficiency.

As others have said, you're not being screwed over.  Consider yourself lucky you didn't end up with a RW and disciplinary action.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Consider yourself lucky you didn't end up with a RW and disciplinary action.

That can still happen. Depending on who is going to do the charging, the investigation could be ongoing and completely out of the CoC's control or knowledge.

They have a year less a day to bring it to trial.

Although there will be cautions, interviews and statements prior to that.

That would give sufficient warning that it's not over

 

[Benzyme]

Done pouting, this just didn't go the way I imagined it would lol.

Thanks for the help recceguy.

I have not been advised of any Admin Review or Career Review but whoever mentioned it is right, It's quite possible that it's in the process of happening.

 

[Scott]

Well, you showed me something completely different from what I expected, good on you.

I retract my earlier sarcasm.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5019-4-eng.asp

You can't be selective and read the parts of a DAOD, etc that you like and support your stance.  I assure you, any Analyst (Grievance, AR, etc) will not. 

Read the whole DAOD, example:

Factors in Selecting a Remedial Measure

An initiating authority shall consider the following factors before selecting a remedial measure:
the facts of the case, including the significance and impact of the deficiency;
the CF member’s entire period of service, taking into account the CF member’s rank, military occupation, experience and position;
any conduct or performance assessment, evaluation or constructive criticism previously received by the CF member in respect of the deficiency;
any previous deficiency substantially related to the current deficiency of the CF member and the amount of time that has elapsed between the two (e.g. C&P is more likely to be initiated for a CF member in respect of whom an RW was initiated six months ago for a related deficiency, than in respect of whom a similar RW was initiated 20 years ago); and
any relevant factors in associated policies or orders related to the specific deficiency.

While your IC and C & P are not 'relevant to this performance/conduct deficiency', they are still considered. 

You need to remember, some charges are removed from your Conduct Sheet after X amount of time, while Remedial Measures remain on the mbr's Pers File forever.

Rather than spending my time pursuing a grievance that will appear retaliatory (IMO) and fail, why not work on improving yourself?

If your CofC was hammering for you, I suspect you'd be in the Summary Trial lane too as well as being told that your Admin Review was underway.  My  :2c:

I would have CLEAR and DEMONSTRATED evidence before you use words like "bias" on the part of your CO.  My advice is walk away from this for the Holidays, and look at it after the dust has settled.  After all, your CO isn't the one on RMs for multiple reasons.

Now is the time you should be focusing on showing your CofC that you can overcome those documented deficiencies and thinking about what you can do to reverse the damage you've done to date.

If I were you and I wasn't on an IE25, I'd be thinking long term things like "oh, my TOS is coming up.....yikes".

Advice is free so take it or leave it, but some of us have been involved in things like grievances, understand how that system works and all that.

My advice (knowing what  you've told us) is this isn't the hill you want to die on, and (again from what you've said) your grievance will do nothing to help you but will likely hurt you in the end.

:2c:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Done pouting, this just didn't go the way I imagined it would lol.

Thanks for the help recceguy.

I have not been advised of any Admin Review or Career Review but whoever mentioned it is right, It's quite possible that it's in the process of happening.

It seldom does in these matters.

Your welcome.

They might be allowing you to get through the holidays without worrying and will be watching you when you get back.

Make a NY resolution to be the best soldier you can be and make them feel that that coin and advanced promotion were deserved and appreciated.

You can't undo it, but you can turn the page and get on with it.

Good luck.

 

[Franko]

Usually an administrative tool such as RW or C&P are viewed by the CoC as a means to sort out an issue and and get the person at fault back on the right path....regardless of what the person at fault own POV might be.

There are reporting periods and reviews that must be met and interviews that have to be done to give feedback to the individual, either positive or negative.

Think of it as a kick in the ass to get you back in the game.

My 0.02 worth.