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REG VS RES NCM INF PAY

expeditionary

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NFLD Sapper said:
IIRC BMQ-Land is rolled into Inf DP1 Trades course so you will go from BMQ-Common to Inf DP 1....

Hmm...interesting, I was just reading up on it. (source http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/training-prof-dev/non-commissioned-members.page).

If true, BMQ-Land is amalgamated into the 17 week BOQT, right?
If if true, DP1 for INF is ~seven months then.

BMQ = 12 weeks = Three (3) Months
BOQT = 17 Weeks = 4.25 months - round to Four (4) Months
Total Time (initial) Training = ~Seven (7.25) months*
 

DAA

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expeditionary said:
Hmm...interesting, I was just reading up on it. (source http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/training-prof-dev/non-commissioned-members.page).

If true, BMQ-Land is amalgamated into the 17 week BOQT, right?
If if true, DP1 for INF is ~seven months then.

BMQ = 12 weeks = Three (3) Months
BOQT = 17 Weeks = 4.25 months - round to Four (4) Months
Total Time (initial) Training = ~Seven (7.25) months*

What exactly are you trying to get at here?

If I'm following this correctly, you seem to be equating training time and qualifications with pay increases, which isn't the case.  Pay Increments (increases) are granted annually based on your date of enrolment.  So whether or not you are occupation qualified, after 12 months of service, you move to Pte IPC 2.
 

expeditionary

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DAA said:
What exactly are you trying to get at here?

If I'm following this correctly, you seem to be equating training time and qualifications with pay increases, which isn't the case.  Pay Increments (increases) are granted annually based on your date of enrolment.  So whether or not you are occupation qualified, after 12 months of service, you move to Pte IPC 2.

Good point. My logic (albeit out-of-loop and quasi awake state of mind) was as follows:
[list type=decimal]
[*]forces.ca (http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pdf/infantrysoldier-4) markets a fully trained soldier to rake in $49,000. We know this to be the third year of service/pay increment, with a little math from the pay table (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-ncm-class-c-rates.page), and my original thread post.
expeditionary said:
REG - YEAR/INCREMENT 3
Monthly = $4,120
Yearly = $4,120 x 12 months = $49,440
Taxes = $8,397
After Tax Yearly Income = $41,043
After Tax Monthly Income = $41,043 / 12 months = $3,420.5
[*]Silly me totally neglects this info (and the fact that from DOE goes into effect for annual pay increases), and thought process goes to, "So, lets calculate what time it takes to finish training, and then we'll know when we're making the big bucks!" 'sigh.
[*]Actually, yes, I remember now. The pay grade is posted, the deductions aren't. This is all about deductions!
The financial importance and scrutiny of figuring out deductions (R&Q, taxes, etc.):

Make a million, spend a million, and you're back at zero. Make a dollar, keep that dollar, and you have a dollar.
So, from the information provided on the net pay from BMQ in St. Jean, I interpolated the data to give a rough estimate as to what deductions would be for the duration of training in the DP1 stage (BMQ, environmental, and basic occupational qualification).

[*]So, we (kind-of?) figured out what a rough estimate of DP1 net pay, which is approximately eight months of a three year VIE, or 22% of the VIE. Now, we just have to find out what approximate costs would be deducted while posted to a base after DP1. Or, in all favour, give this up because it's starting to feel like I should have became an accountant and meddled with numbers, and this is exactly why I'm joining the military as infantry, because I can only (or, want to) count to ten on my hands; and dig dig dig, of course.

[*]Involuntarily, another way to look at it is calculating total DP1 time and figuring out it's approximately 22% of the time of a three year VIE. That's probably the best we got outta that post.

[/list]



Code:
If anyone could provide info on deductions/net pay info from Garrison Petawawa/Gagetown/Shilo/Edmonton like DAA did for BMQ in St. Jean, THANK YOU!!



So, this post has gone from REG VS RES NCM INF PAY to REG NCM PAY/DEDUCTIONS

Regarding provincial taxes. Well, lets look at postings:

Royal Canadian Regiment (RCR)
  • Petawawa - Ontario - 5.05% on the first $41,536 of taxable income, + 9.15% on the next $41,539
  • Gagetown - New Brunswick - 9.68% on the first $40,492 of taxable income, + 14.82% on the next $40,493

Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (PPCLI)
  • Shilo/Edmonton - Alberta - 10% on the first $125,000 of taxable income

For simplicities sake, lets use the average gross pay of all three years in the VIE to calculate provincial and federal taxes due.
That would be $124,272 (cumulative gross over three years) / 3 (years) = $41,424 (averaged gross pay over three years).

ONTARIO - 5.05% of $41,424 = $2,091.91
NEW BRUNSWICK - 9.68% of $40,492 = $3,919.63 AND 14.82% of $750 = $111.15 --- TOTAL = $4,030.78
EDMONTON - 10% of $41,424 = $4,142.4

Code:
RMKS
ONTARIO - GOOD
NEW BRUNSWICK - DECENT
ALBERTA - COUNTING TO TEN ON FINGERS EASY

Federal Tax:
  • 15% on the first $45,282 of taxable income, +
  • 20.5% on the next $45,281 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $45,282 up to $90,563),
15% of $41,424 = $6,213.6

TOGETHER NOW!

ONTARIO POSTING - $2,091.91 + $6,213.6 = $8,305.51 ||| $41,424 (gross) - $8,305.51 = $33,118.49 (after taxes)
NEW BRUNSWICK POSTING - $4,030.78 + $6,213.6 = $10,244.38 ||| $41,424 (gross) - $10,244.38 = $31,179.62 (after taxes)
EDMONTON POSTING - $4,142.4 + $6,213.6 = $10,356 ||| $41,424 (gross) - $10,356 = $31,068 (after taxes)

Now, add them all up, average them, since the range ($33,118.49 - $31,068) is $2,050.49 (4.95% of 3yr/avg. gross pay. Marginal).

The average is $31,788.70 (annual net) or $2,649.06 (monthly net). Said another way, expect to clear in as net in three years $95,366.11, before deductions, pizza, smokes, booze, and alimony. INCOMING CURVEBALL! INCENTIVES!

If I can see ~$2,000 coming in post incentives and deductions (R&Q - FOOD AND HOUSE!), that's $500 a week in saving money. Not bad. Not bad at all.

Now we can all go home and stop thinking of this, focus on PT, and dream of digging holes in our sleep. Oh, sleep.

DUCIMUS!

TAX RATE SOURCE:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

 

DAA

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The deductions won't really change much.  Ration charges are "universal", so it makes no difference where you are posted, they will always be the same.  The only difference will be after completion of DP1 and posted for first time employment, at which point you can "self" manage your ration charges in one of three ways:

1 - continue to be subject to the "full rate";  or
2 - opt to elect the "half rate";  or
3 - opt out of paying for rations all together and feed yourself.

Quarters charges may fluctuate upward, depending on the type of accommodation assigned after DP1.
 

expeditionary

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DAA said:
The deductions won't really change much.  Ration charges are "universal"...

This make this threads life easy. Since we're talking from a national annual salary, universal/national is good here.

$538.72 was the "full rate" Ration cost at St.Jean during BMQ. The daily rate works out to $17.96, which is a bargain considering:
[list type=decimal]
[*]No need to prepare/wash/cook.
[*]Three square meals - $17.96/3 = $5.98 per meal.
[*]Time to hang out and relax.
[/list]
The average income is $2,649.06 (monthly net (pre Rations and Quarters)).

$2,649.96  - $538.72 = $2,111.24 (monthly net (post Rations)).

Now, to obtain the variance of Quarters...
 

blacktriangle

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This is either an elaborate trolling, or he's probably going to have some issues making friends in the Army.

 

AbdullahD

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Spectrum said:
This is either an elaborate trolling, or he's probably going to have some issues making friends in the Army.

I'm inclined to think he is not trolling, but then again im enjoying his research albeit it is redundant and he is way over thinking it imho.

I just hope he realizes there is more then money to life.

Abdullah
 

blacktriangle

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Well if he's serious, he's soon going to realize that becoming an Infantry NCM is not exactly a cash-cow.

My constructive comment for the day: expeditionary - you are very thorough, we could use more clerks like you. There are also many other options in the military as an NCM - including a number that receive Spec Pay after QL5/DP2. Do yourself (and possibly the Infantry  ;D ) a service and explore the options...


 

runormal

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I agree with the others you are over thinking the hell out of this. Likewise trying to plan how much money you will make as a CLS A reservist is a dangerous and foolish idea IMO. I've looked at the past few year end pay stubs and my my pay difference has been in the thousands of dollars (up or down $4k depending on the year).

Likewise your pay in the reserves for the first few years is heavily dictated by how quickly you get trained and if you are lucky get your 404's. You are going to pretty much need your PTE(T)'s to get various taskings/class A days. If you can drive (i.e be in possession of 404's) that makes you 200% more employable. Furthermore some units really engage their PATs (Personnel Awaiting Training), and other units don't do a whole lot with them.

Likewise your pay in the reserves is dictated by how often you show up, and the availability of work.

Need a weekend off to study? Fine but it will cost you $300 + Field Pay + 2 days worth of food.

Can't make this weeks parade night? Fine, but it will cost you $65.

All you friends are going to City X for the weekend, oh crap we have an ex this weekend...

If you miss any event that is money out of your pocket, which you can't make up..

As a reservist you will have to make decisions, I've had friends and a ex flat out tell me that I work too much and that I should take some weekends off. Likewise my social life was close to nil between 3rd and 4th University as I managed to snag a job in my field of study while showing up 2-3 weekends a month. I've missed parties, sporting events, activities with friends, concerts, one time a funeral (but that is a complicated story, I didn't want to go as  I'm not on the best terms with my dads side of the family, so I willingly worked). Likewise I've taken weekends off to study, and weekends to do group projects. As student the money is pretty good, but I don't really do it for the money. Yes I "needed" the money but I have really enjoyed my time in the reserves.

Now that I'm more or less done school I did create a budget to see how much I'd make at my civy job and how quickly I can pay off my student loans. However I didn't even factor in the reserves, there are far too many variable to even consider. I have an idea of what i'll make but whatever I'll make in the reserves I'm transferring directly to pay back my student loans. Once those are taken care of the reserves will be my "fun money" as well as I'll start saving for a downpayment on a house.

You can support your self as a student fairly well as an army reservist, but again I wouldn't crunch numbers before you even see your unit calendar for the training year, let alone swear in. What if you try it and find out it isn't for you? Even in the reserves people VR after weekend 1.




 
L

LightFighter

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Easy way to determine if you should go Reg vs Reserve instead of being Rainman and only thinking about the money and calculating it over and over again.

If you want to be employed full time with the Military, go Regular Force. This will be enough to support yourself and family, plus you will get more benefits compared to the Reserves.


If you only want to do this part time with occasional periods of full time employment, while still maintaining full time school or civilian employment go Reserve. Don't count on the Reserves for full time employment or to support yourself financially.



Or continue to think this over for another couple months; but eventually you will need to decide and submit an application.
 

expeditionary

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Alright gentlemen, the response.

[list type=decimal]
[*]Agreed. I am overthinking; in the regard of considering take home pay in a situation where calculation net pay varies to a high degree and is unpredictable to calculate, given the virtue of the occupation.
[*]This research would have been quick and easy if: 1) Rations and Quarters at individual garrisons were public knowledge like: provincial/federal taxes, home insurance, base pay salary, and a quick google search for rent and cost of food in a particular town, amongst a varying degree of other costs of living.

[*]Subject Change: REG NCM INF NET PAY - I've realized it's a mighty endeavour to compare the two, as pointed out by this research and generous comments/input. The mission forth-ward is to find the approximate net pay for a Pte during the first VIE with some acceptable degree of variance (say ~10%) given the large amount of factors that can effect pay.
[*]REG FORCE makes the most sense, for me.
[*]Today, unfortunate circumstances brought news to my ears that will inhibit me to join the forces for six months. It's a sad day, but in this respect, it gives me time to work on myself, physically and mentally, and determine the average net INF pay....JUST KIDDING! I'm going to rest this issue and research for a while.

[/list]


Thank you to all who contributed wish insight, perspective, knowledge, and facts towards this endeavour, and those who wish to further contribute to the financial planning research of an NCM REG INF 3YR VIE.​


SupersonicMax said:
Man, you are over-thinking this..
Agreed. When I get thinking, I think, and it does give me a headache. It's good to see perspective from the outside.

Spectrum said:
This is either an elaborate trolling, or he's probably going to have some issues making friends in the Army.
Far from "trolling". It'd be a shame if the negation of your first statement made your second true.

AbdullahD said:
I'm inclined to think he is not trolling
You are correct!

AbdullahD said:
...but then again I'm enjoying his research.
Thank you!

AbdullahD said:
...I just hope he realizes there is more then money to life.
Please refer to my first post in this thread, quoted below.
expeditionary said:
Disclaimer: My decision isn't based solely on pay, though as the lubricant of society, and the constraints I currently face, it's a crucial factor in making an informed decision.
Spectrum said:
Well if he's serious, he's soon going to realize that becoming an Infantry NCM is not exactly a cash-cow..
Exactly the point of this research; figuring out the financial compensation before committing, and whether it fulfils my needs; read disclaimer on first post. Even though it's not very financially rewarding, my intent through my goals are to join REG NCM INF.

Spectrum said:
My constructive comment for the day: expeditionary - you are very thorough, we could use more clerks like you. There are also many other options in the military as an NCM...
Thank you! Though I must admit, I hate office work. RE: OPTIONS, infantry is exclusive to the military, desk-work isn't.
Spectrum said:
including a number that receive Spec Pay after QL5/DP2.
The attraction of spec pay (in another trade) isn't enough to skew me from fulfilling a life long goal of serving as 00010.
Spectrum said:
Do yourself (and possibly the Infantry  ;D ) a service and explore the options...
[/brokenheart]

runormal said:
...I didn't even factor in the reserves, there are far too many variable to even consider...
...I wouldn't crunch numbers before you even see your unit calendar for the training year, let alone swear in. What if you try it and find out it isn't for you?
I find this a very healthy approach and input I admire. You, and the other posts make a good point, thank you.

LightFighter said:
Don't count on the Reserves for full time employment or to support yourself financially.
Agreed.
LightFighter said:
Or continue to think this over for another couple months; but eventually you will need to decide and submit an application.
See response point #5.
 

AbdullahD

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Well ill give you the tip of the hat for the humor. mayhap we will be in basic together, i need to get fit and plan on applying in around 6 months.

I can use intelligent chaps around me ;)

nonetheless good on ya and it looks solid to me.

Abdullah
 

Brasidas

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expeditionary said:
Alright gentlemen, the response.

[list type=decimal]
[*]Agreed. I am overthinking; in the regard of considering take home pay in a situation where calculation net pay varies to a high degree and is unpredictable to calculate, given the virtue of the occupation.
[*]This research would have been quick and easy if: 1) Rations and Quarters at individual garrisons were public knowledge like: provincial/federal taxes, home insurance, base pay salary, and a quick google search for rent and cost of food in a particular town, amongst a varying degree of other costs of living.

[*]Subject Change: REG NCM INF NET PAY - I've realized it's a mighty endeavour to compare the two, as pointed out by this research and generous comments/input. The mission forth-ward is to find the approximate net pay for a Pte during the first VIE with some acceptable degree of variance (say ~10%) given the large amount of factors that can effect pay.
[*]REG FORCE makes the most sense, for me.
[*]Today, unfortunate circumstances brought news to my ears that will inhibit me to join the forces for six months. It's a sad day, but in this respect, it gives me time to work on myself, physically and mentally, and determine the average net INF pay....JUST KIDDING! I'm going to rest this issue and research for a while.

[/list]


Thank you to all who contributed wish insight, perspective, knowledge, and facts towards this endeavour, and those who wish to further contribute to the financial planning research of an NCM REG INF 3YR VIE.​

Agreed. When I get thinking, I think, and it does give me a headache. It's good to see perspective from the outside.
Far from "trolling". It'd be a shame if the negation of your first statement made your second true.
You are correct!
Thank you!
Please refer to my first post in this thread, quoted below. Exactly the point of this research; figuring out the financial compensation before committing, and whether it fulfils my needs; read disclaimer on first post. Even though it's not very financially rewarding, my intent through my goals are to join REG NCM INF.
Thank you! Though I must admit, I hate office work. RE: OPTIONS, infantry is exclusive to the military, desk-work isn't. The attraction of spec pay (in another trade) isn't enough to skew me from fulfilling a life long goal of serving as 00010. [/brokenheart]
I find this a very healthy approach and input I admire. You, and the other posts make a good point, thank you.
Agreed. See response point #5.

Three points:
One, if your "lifelong goal" is to be infantry, and you don't have immediate commitments such as three kids to support, what's held you up from your goal and why are you spinning over reg vs res and finances? You are going to get an incomplete picture, you are going to be making less than you might pursuing some other career, and you are going to be more stable and earning more in the reg force than the reserve. You already know all of this.

Two, you are aware that there's more to military than infantry, pilots, and ships' captains, right? Have you spent a significant time sitting down and talking to infanteers about their experiences and choices, or visiting a reserve infantry unit and observing training? There are plenty of trades that aren't the office work that you disparage (and you might be surprised at how much paperwork leadership does). Have you actually researched engineers or armour as trade options? How about signals or medics? If you don't know what the alternatives are like, do you really think you're doing yourself a favor by putting yourself inside a small box?

Three, you're spinning. Stop.

Instead of trying to calculate the aggregate rations and quarters bill between Gagetown and Shilo, research your prospective career(s) in a productive manner and make intelligent decisions.
 

Loachman

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And if you waste this much time and effort with minutiae, how are you ever going to be able to conduct an estimate, make a plan, and issue orders before the enemy overruns your position and is three weeks into their post-war victory leave?

This has been incredibly painful to read.
 
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