RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]

[Monsoon]

"T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
There's not a company in the world that would recognize his schedule as 55 hours for the purposes of overtime."

That would be paid as 12 hours where I used to work.

Mike, the reason you and Bruce are paid that way for longer shifts is because the nature of your work is such that even slightly longer days impose exponentially more hardship than regular ones. I've been full time staff at an NRD, and I can say with confidence that it doesn't compare to EMT or Corrections work in that way.

 

[wesleyd]

I am assuming you are a PO1/PO2 (I did the same job at an NRD too). Figure something out, talk to the RegF LCdr and TELL him your plan. I had an ugly confrontation myself with my NRD's XO but in the end, all were happy and there was no disrespect. What's the saying?: You can be happy, or you can be right.

Hey Pat, right now there are no Reg Force in the command team. I am not saying that I don't want to put the time in but I would like some time to my family and myself. Right now reg force are expected to be there for every unit event even though we may not be directly involved with it. I feel that working in a building that is staffed primarily by part timers should not be more stressful or time consuming than being in charge of a section while steaming EOOW at sea.
I have spoken with a few other NRD's and they seem to be using CTO, even though it is not a real thing, to compensate for the extra hours. I will be going to NAVRESHQ next month and will ask around to see if there may be any type of policy on this matter. I get the feeling though that it is one of those CO's discretion things.

 

[wesleyd]

My liver wouldn't be doing too good if there was more than one Saturday a week  ;D

Typo one saturday a month

 

[wesleyd]

I think what the OP meant was that the Command Team works Mon/Wed/Sat but are not being sympathetic to the dayworking RSS who works the straight days as well as the training hours.  If they have civvie jobs during the day (which they're getting paid for) as well as their reserve Class A hours (which they're getting paid for), then they're not exactly being fair expecting the RSS to put in all these hours just because they're salaried.

I too would recommend that you take a casual survey of your brethren in the RSS positions at the NRDs across the country.  Something doesn't sound right.

I have been talking with a few they appear to be using CTO for the evening and weekends. Which is fair, I think.

 

[Zoomie]

I have been talking with a few they appear to be using CTO for the evening and weekends. Which is fair, I think.

This is how most PRes units work

 

[Harris]

I have been talking with a few they appear to be using CTO for the evening and weekends. Which is fair, I think.

Agreed, this is fair, but just be aware it is not a requirement.  As was mentioned above a bit, CTO is not an official leave.  Units get away with using it nearly everywhere I've even been but it's at the CO's discretion.  CO's are "supposed" to use short leave to compensate pers.  Short leave is however limited to 2 days per month maximum.

 

[wesleyd]

"Bingo. Don't tell me the extra $250 a month you get as sea pay makes the difference for the extra working hours; you put those hours in because you believe in your job and because everyone understands it to be normal. The real problem here is that you arrived at your new unit believing that you were being sent on a "lifestyle" posting that would let you spend lots of time with your family, etc, etc, so expectations were out of whack with the realities of the job. Not your fault - I wish the "facts of life" for Reg F staff sent to support NRDs were better communicated to the people being posted in so they could decide if they're willing to make the commitment in advance of the posting."
It was more like 748/month. And it does make the time a little more bearable. I believe in my job regardless of where I work. I don't mind the commitment I just get the impression that the mentality is we are reg force and should be be available and at work seven days a week 24/7. I can get all the work done in the normal work week. The people who come in from other jobs are compensated for that time. I feel that I should be as well; don't even get me started on Class B folks who can't come in because there contract says they can't. I don't expect to be off at noon every day but I do expect to be home before suppertime and for the week ends. Not marching around some town in the middle of nowhere  on a Sunday or holiday that everyone else around me is getting paid to do while I am expected to be at work the next day. I have done over 7 years at sea. Not seven years sea time seven straight years that I have been away from home. At sea you have a specific mission that you commit 110% to succeed. The NRD although dedicated uses the term operational commitment for everything be it a parade where you march or a parade with floats and the like. The building doesn't sail, the NRD is there to augment the fleet. On the ship I had 12 people working directly for me along with being in charge of the plant while at sea and boarding party duties. I always managed to get PER's any PM and any other work done withing an 0800-1500 hrs day alongside and if anyone was required to stay past that they were always compensated through CTO. While at sea for long periods you have foreign ports to break that up which are generally sunday routines, except for us stokers, unless you were duty.
I will take your advice though and work out a schedule and present it up the chain to see what happens. After talking with several NRD's though the one I am at seems to be the exception to what is considered normal at other units.
Thanks

 

[Pusser]

Not to beat a dead horse here (I've already said what I needed to, which is just to approach the problem with comprehensive staff work), but the OP isn't really working 55 hours a week. Here's how the schedule looks in reality:

M - F: 0800 to 1600 (40 hours)
T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
(I have a feeling the one Saturday a week was a typo - should be one per month. No unit is budgeted that much, and they'll typically drop a training evening in lieu)

Less one-hour lunches every day (-5)
Less a half-hour at the gym every day (if he's taking advantage of it) (-2.5)

In reality, 55 hours a week pretty quickly turns into less than 40 if you approach it the way any civilian employer (even the public service) would. For sure, he's not going to be able to go home over lunch hours and in the three hours between the end of the normal work day and the beginning of the training night; he may even just stay at his desk in that time to clear up some work - but that's not because his bosses are forcing him to. We in the CF have the bad habit of equating "time away from home" with "time at work". There's not a company in the world that would recognize his schedule as 55 hours for the purposes of overtime.

And again, this isn't a vote of support for the decisions of his unit leadership - just a bit of devil's advocacy.

I call BS!  What the OP is describing is wrong - VERY wrong and accounting sophistry doesn't make it right.  He IS entitled to his time off and expecting him to work extra hours while pointing out "duty 24/7" or "15% more" is total BS.  In my old reserve unit, the RSS came in on training nights, but they also got time off during the week.  You don't have to call it CTO, you can call it shift work, where shifts vary in length, depending on the day. 

As an aside, if you do work from 0800 to 2200 (full day in the office plus the training night) you are entitled to supper at public expense (actual and reasonable costs up the daily rate for supper - provide there's no mess available).  Maybe after filing a few $30+ claims, your CO may change his tune.  See CFAO 36-14.

 

[Monsoon]

I call BS!  What the OP is describing is wrong - VERY wrong and accounting sophistry doesn't make it right.  He IS entitled to his time off and expecting him to work extra hours while pointing out "duty 24/7" or "15% more" is total BS.

I think you'll find the class "B" staff work the same schedule as the Reg F staff at the OP's unit. (I'm also a bit surprised that a Logistics officer would regard "subtraction" as "sophistry". Are you free to manage my budget by any chance?  ;D)

As an aside, if you do work from 0800 to 2200 (full day in the office plus the training night) you are entitled to supper at public expense (actual and reasonable costs up the daily rate for supper - provide there's no mess available).  Maybe after filing a few $30+ claims, your CO may change his tune.  See CFAO 36-14.

A good point - but that's an entitlement he can claim regardless of whether he's compensated with time off for the evening hours or not.

 

[Pusser]

I think you'll find the class "B" staff work the same schedule as the Reg F staff at the OP's unit. (I'm also a bit surprised that a Logistics officer would regard "subtraction" as "sophistry". Are you free to manage my budget by any chance?  ;D)
A good point - but that's an entitlement he can claim regardless of whether he's compensated with time off for the evening hours or not.

The sophistry comes from subtracting time  as "non-work time" simply because the member is not at his/her desk.  Most CF units work 0800-1600 (i.e. eight hours) and take an hour for lunch.  Furthermore, PT time is work time (operational/job requirement to maintain a level of fitness) and should not be deducted either. 

 

[Monsoon]

The sophistry comes from subtracting time  as "non-work time" simply because the member is not at his/her desk.  Most CF units work 0800-1600 (i.e. eight hours) and take an hour for lunch.

...and this one does not (unless the OP is successfully able to staff a request to try a different approach).

Furthermore, PT time is work time (operational/job requirement to maintain a level of fitness) and should not be deducted either.

Sure, bringing the total number of work hours up to 41. I just wanted to point out to the OP that this is something he can be doing on company time, if he's not already. If he's putting in his long week and going to the gym on his own time, this in effect "saves" him 2.5 hours.

Anyway - wesleyd, I've sent you a PM that will probably give you a good way forward. I'm not going to keep fighting a rearguard action against the "this isn't what I'd do for MY people" crowd, because frankly I agree with them. Just be aware that your command team is empowered to ask what they're asking of you and that they have some arguments in their favour that you'll encounter. The opinions of people who aren't them don't matter in this case, so make sure you approach this in a way that will convince them to change their minds, rather than try to force them with the overwhelming power of what other people think.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Stress leave for a month followed by half days for 2
Make sure you take afternoons off though so you can get your hour and a half  'on your own time' PT in during the morning

 

[CountDC]

A normal work day by time keeping standards for Reg F and full time Res is 7 hours (35 per week, at least it was when I did time keeping). That is of course taking into account 1 hour for lunch which in the normal world is usually not paid time. Anything more than that and the member is being required to work extra time.  A decent unit will recognize and schedule time off accordingly.  Seems you unfortunately did not get one of those.

We used to have a schedule that enabled the office to be manned at all hours of unit operation.

One unit we had staff that worked Mon to Fri regular hours.  The Sgt worked Mon - Thu days, Thu Evenings plus at least one weekend per month. The MCpl worked Tue-Fri days, Tue Evenings plus at least one weekend per month.  Cl A staff worked Tue/Thu evenings plus the work weekends each month.

Another Unit we worked an off set schedule on Tue and Thu, starting later in the day.  Time off for weekends were up to the supervisor and we always worked something out.

Unfortunately I also had a unit similar to yours - Mon to Fri plus Tue/Thu evenings and weekends. 

Good luck in finding a workable solution - hopefully it does work out for you.  I have a feeling though that you are at a unit that wants the warm body there just for the sake of having the warm body there regardless of work load.

I vote for Grimaldus suggestion.

 

[Haggis]

Compensatory Time Off 

CTO = undocumented Short Leave.  Many units give out CTO weekly to cover off working two nights a week plus weekends, to an extent where it exceeds the entitlement for Short Leave as described in the CF Leave Policy Manual:

"9.1.01 Policy
The purpose of short leave is to provide a member of the Regular Force or of the Reserve Force on Class "B" or "C" reserve service with time away from their duties to:
• Compensate, in part, for long hours worked during extended periods of operations/training or working on normal days of rest;
• Provide members with time away from their duties to conduct urgent personal business; or
• Reward exemplary work.

9.1.02 Reckoning time
Short leave is reckoned in hours to a maximum of 48 hours.

9.1.03 Approval authority
The CO may grant short leave.

9.1.04 Limitations
Short Leave shall not be granted:
• More often than once in each month;
• For a period in excess of 48 hours;
• Consecutively with another period of short leave; and
• In conjunction with retirement leave."

 

[Journeyman]

For clarity, I was just spelling out the acronym in response to a question. I have no particular dog in this fight.

 

[gcclarke]

I heartily disagree with the assessment of CTO as a form of "undocumented short leave". It's instead a re-jigging of the member's wrok schedule such that any days that are scheduled to be a CTO are not considered to be part of the member's working days, defined in the leave manual as:

Working days means those days within a week on which work is normally scheduled for the member by the member's Commanding Officer.

Treating it as a form of shift work is most appropriate. The leave manual also specifies how Commanding Officers should be scheduling their shift workers, emphasis mine:

2.8.01 Scheduling
Shift workers may follow a schedule that differs from a Monday to Friday working week but it is a schedule nonetheless. In scheduling the working days of a shift worker, the CO is responsible for specifically identifying both the working and non-working days so as to ensure that an equivalent amount of time off for weekends and statutory holidays is provided to shift workers as is provided to CF members working a Monday to Friday working week.

Anyhow, I agree that this particular scenario is definitely fishy.

 

[mariomike]

That is of course taking into account 1 hour for lunch which in the normal world is usually not paid time.

Many workers remain on duty throughout their shift. Shifts are 12 hours for some jobs. They receive a 30 minute paid lunch break.
They call it a "running lunch: "Running Lunch shall not be interpreted as a sit-down lunch, but a lunch to be eaten when conditions permit."

 

[chrisf]

Aside from a few part time minimum wage jobs, I have yet to have an employer who doesn't pay for a lunch break, of course, 40 hours per week with a paid 1hr break, or 35 with an unpaid break, still works out to the same working hours....

 

[wesleyd]

Starting to make some headway with this issue. One of the sticking points is that keeps arising is the argument that Class A pers that come in do not get time off there regular job. My argument is that they are compensated by being paid while they are in during their off time. I also raise argument that if they did not get paid how many would eagerly attend the evening events.

 

[wesleyd]

Not to beat a dead horse here (I've already said what I needed to, which is just to approach the problem with comprehensive staff work), but the OP isn't really working 55 hours a week. Here's how the schedule looks in reality:

M - F: 0800 to 1600 (40 hours)
T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
(I have a feeling the one Saturday a week was a typo - should be one per month. No unit is budgeted that much, and they'll typically drop a training evening in lieu)

Less one-hour lunches every day (-5)
Less a half-hour at the gym every day (if he's taking advantage of it) (-2.5)

In reality, 55 hours a week pretty quickly turns into less than 40 if you approach it the way any civilian employer (even the public service) would. For sure, he's not going to be able to go home over lunch hours and in the three hours between the end of the normal work day and the beginning of the training night; he may even just stay at his desk in that time to clear up some work - but that's not because his bosses are forcing him to. We in the CF have the bad habit of equating "time away from home" with "time at work". There's not a company in the world that would recognize his schedule as 55 hours for the purposes of overtime.

And again, this isn't a vote of support for the decisions of his unit leadership - just a bit of devil's advocacy.

OK how about when you are operational. 24/7 for up to 8 months. Are they going to pay overtime for that?