Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins

[The Bread Guy]

First step from MERX:  Price and Availability Request

".... The Canadian Forces (CF) are looking to replace all current types of pistols in use with a newer weapon and is gathering information on the Price and Availability of weapons and the number of potential contenders as part of its planning and budget process. Personnel from all services of the CF will use these pistols for self-DEFENCE. The GSP will replace the 9mm Browning High Power (HP) and the 9mm Sig Sauer Model 225 pistol ...."

More details on what's wanted, as well as projected timeline from here to purchase (Fall 2015) in the attached files.

 

[lethalLemon]

Sounds cool, maybe the CF will pick up some Berettas! Mmmm... 

 

[MikeL]

Sounds cool, maybe the CF will pick up some Berettas! Mmmm... 

Why Berretta?  Why not the Sig Saur P226 which is already in use with certain parts of the CF.

 

[lethalLemon]

Why Berretta?  Why not the Sig Saur P226 which is already in use with certain parts of the CF.

It does say that they're looking so it could be anything. You could say the same thing... why did they have some using 225s and the rest Browning? Why didn't they just send out everyone one brand? I'm just pondering, nobody knows what they'll put to trial and purchase. Berettas are VERY nice handguns, my father has had one since the 80's when his was with the Strats (when they still called Calgary home) and it's taking quite a beating and still performs beautifully (and I don't even take care of it as well as a military man does). The Sig Sauer are great as well, the P226 is a very nice model too.

EDIT: Also, what ever happened to that Para Ordnance company here in Canada that made those fantastic P14-45 and LDA pistols? Did it close shop or something? I was thinking, if they still existed, why don't they take up work with them for a GSP? It would create jobs, it would be buying Canadian and stimulating our own markets/economy.

EDIT again: Apparently the P226 is no longer made in 9mm, but now in .40SW. Would this have an impact on whether or not it would be considered for trial and purchase as a GSP? I also say the disclaimer: " for National Security reasons, the weapons will be produced in Canada by Colt" Does this mean that if they decide that - let's say the HK P30 9mm is selected - all of the parts for initial production and issue are shipped to Colt and assembled there to ensure they haven't been tampered with, along with all maintenance and life cycle materials (As Colt employees are pre-screened)?

 

[Loachman]

Para moved to the US - closer to their market and fewer stupid laws with which to deal.

http://www.paraord.com/new/why_about.php

 

[MikeL]

It does say that they're looking so it could be anything. You could say the same thing... why did they have some using 225s and the rest Browning? Why didn't they just send out everyone one brand? I'm just pondering, nobody knows what they'll put to trial and purchase.

Disregard my comment about the P226.  In my reply I was just wondering why you would want the CF to go for the Berretta.  I have minimal experience with Beretta pistols(fired a 92F once and didn't like it). Just wondering what pros you see in Berretta to be a GSP for the CF.

As for why the CF had some 225s but kept the Browning as the Service Pistol, I don't know for sure, I assume certain units had certain requirements for what they wanted in a Pistol and the BHP didn't meet those requirements.


I'll look it up about the P226 no longer being made for 9mm, haven't heard that before and the P226 on the Sig Saur website is still listed as being available in 9mm.

 

[buzgo]

4 years to first delivery? For what is a COTS purchase?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Double action only? Prepare for lots of range time re-evaluating failures.

 

[dapaterson]

4 years to first delivery? For what is a COTS purchase?

Yes.  Step 1: gauge industry interest - 6 months

Step 2: acquire small quatities of each potential candidate.  Refine & finalize the statement of requirements - 18 months

Step 3: compete and issue contract - 6 months

Step 4: arrange technology transfer to Colt - 12 months

Step 5: Colt begins production and delivers first lot in quantity - 6 months


That's quick and dirty off the top of my head.  Parts of the timelines may shift.  Approvals may be longer, depending on whether it's MND or Treasury Board that approves the acquisition.  Technology transfer is tricky as companies negotiate.

 

[Redeye]

4 years to first delivery? For what is a COTS purchase?

It's not really a COTS purchase - the winning design will be produced under license by Colt Canada, so they're basically contracting for a TDP/license production package.  I wonder how many companies will bid that have products that meet that description.

There's a DAO version of the Browning Hi-Power. Glock has a proven design in wide use as well, so does Smith & Wesson. So does SIG, after all - I wonder what will come out of it.

 

[Loachman]

Double action only? Prepare for lots of range time re-evaluating failures.

I wonder whose bright idea that is.

 

[a_majoor]

Legend has it that the reason we still use Browning Hi Powers is they were built in Canada in the waning days of WWII for the Nationalist Chinese Army, but the Communists had defeated them by the time the order was ready to be shipped. Since pistols are not a high use item, the thousands stored in the warehouse could sit quietly in their packing for decades while the issued ones wore out. Dust off a box, and voila! a replacement is here.

As for service pistols, I am a fan of the Glock series, but since I use a pistol so infrequently it almost does not matter what is selected. I'm sure the unit that uses pistols all the time will also get a budget to refine or modify the issue weapon to their needs anyway.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I wonder whose bright idea that is.

Typically, DAO is incorporated as a Cover Your (Corporate) Ass option, especially with up to an 8 lb trigger pull.

"You really, really, really wanted to pull the trigger, otherwise, it wouldn't have fired, right?"

In most cases, it also means no external hammer or one that you can physically operate.

The idea that they're reasoning is only one type of trigger pull seems just a tad far fetched and unrealistic, IMHO.

 

[Loachman]

Unless stocks are dwindling, there is no need to replace the Browning. And if stocks are dwindling, refreshing them with new Brownings would likely be cheaper than replacing the remainder. I see no advantage to dumping one of the best pistols made.

Ambidextrous extended safeties would be a nice upgrade though.

 

[Redeye]

Legend has it that the reason we still use Browning Hi Powers is they were built in Canada in the waning days of WWII for the Nationalist Chinese Army, but the Communists had defeated them by the time the order was ready to be shipped. Since pistols are not a high use item, the thousands stored in the warehouse could sit quietly in their packing for decades while the issued ones wore out. Dust off a box, and voila! a replacement is here.

The Inglis Mk 1 No 2's made for Nationalist China were distinctly marked as I understand it. There's one in the War Museum with a leaf site graduated to 500m.  It's pretty much an indirect fire weapon at that point, rather humourous.  A lot of the Chinese ones were also sold to the public, I've seen a couple of them at shows and ranges.

As for service pistols, I am a fan of the Glock series, but since I use a pistol so infrequently it almost does not matter what is selected. I'm sure the unit that uses pistols all the time will also get a budget to refine or modify the issue weapon to their needs anyway.

Glocks are simple, easily maintained, and apparently pretty durable.  They're also ridiculously accurate. I used to shoot a fair bit and owned a Glock 17. Out of the box, it was ridiculously easy to get supertight groupings with.  As far as getting them, if I remember right, the finishes on them are a proprietary process, and I'm not sure they'd be keen to license the design out.  Guess we'll see though.

Edited to add - one thing that is a strike again them - their mags are a b**ch to fill without a tool - the springs are ridiculously tight - but that's probably the main reason why they tend to be fail-proof.

 

[R031button]

Ambidextrous extended safeties would be a nice upgrade though.

As would tritium night sights and a magazine that falls free from it's housing.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

As would tritium night sights and a magazine that falls free from it's housing.

Item 3-1
The GSP must be provided
with fixed luminescent
tritium 3 dot adjustable
sights that assist CF
personnel in engaging the
target in periods of darkness
and reduced visibility.


3-15
When released, the magazine
(fully loaded, partial or
empty) should drop freely
from the pistol with little or
no assistance from the
shooter.

 

[s23256]

Unless stocks are dwindling, there is no need to replace the Browning. And if stocks are dwindling, refreshing them with new Brownings would likely be cheaper than replacing the remainder. I see no advantage to dumping one of the best pistols made.

Ambidextrous extended safeties would be a nice upgrade though.

Surely you jest.


Also, based on the document above the Glock in current configurations is out as the trigger must be depressed to strip.

 

[Loachman]

The Inglis Mk 1 No 2's made for Nationalist China were distinctly marked as I understand it.

I was issued one at the Infantry School while on course in 1970 or 1980. The Chinese characters had been overstamped with "X"s.

There's one in the War Museum with a leaf site graduated to 500m.

The one issued to me had had that sight replaced with the standard one. They were also slotted for a hollow wooden shoulder stock that doubled as a slung holster.

It's pretty much an indirect fire weapon at that point, rather humourous.

It was designed to be fired that way using the shoulder stock. I do not know how that worked at long range, but it didn't do much for accuracy at short range.

A lot of the Chinese ones were also sold to the public, I've seen a couple of them at shows and ranges.

I have one. I acquired a shoulder stock in very good condition in 1985 or 1986 from a Flight Engineer at 427 Squadron in exchange for a nylon shoulder holster that was surplus to my requirements. They went for $500.00-$600.00 then. I picked up the pistol in Germany for half of that.

 

[REDinstaller]

Legend has it that the reason we still use Browning Hi Powers is they were built in Canada in the waning days of WWII for the Nationalist Chinese Army, but the Communists had defeated them by the time the order was ready to be shipped. Since pistols are not a high use item, the thousands stored in the warehouse could sit quietly in their packing for decades while the issued ones wore out. Dust off a box, and voila! a replacement is here.

We have at least one at the Regt. Chinese markings on the slide.