Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins

[Good2Golf]

I can check tomorrow but I believe a PDW remains on the table as part of SAM or the follow on projects. 

My personal opinion is that I have a hard time finding a real requirement for a weapon between the C8 and the pistol.

9mm remains due to commonality, the relatively low recoil allowing for easier trg especially for inexperienced pistol shooters, mag capacity, and the fact that  there probably isn't all that much to be gained by going to a more powerful round.  In terms of armour penetration there is not likely to be another calibre of pistol ammo with considerably better performance.  Against a target under the influence of drugs etc, without the kind of catastophic damage you are probably going to need hollow points for, shot placement is going to be the only way to get a quick cessation of threat.

I can think of several applications where "carbine characteristics (out to ~300m)" in a "SMG form-factor" would be operationally desirable.  HK G36C or C8CQB if you stick with 5.56, or something like a KAC PDW if you're willing to accept .243/6mm ammo that still works well out to 300m but is notably more compact than the G36 or C8.

Re: GSP: the HK P30LS would be nice....very similar to P226 overall, but HK's own action provides the require DAO but with much nicer trigger pull.  I agree with others who appreciate the significant training required to mentally move folks from SA to DA pistols, especially DA than can be decocked...the potential for ND's resulting from poor understanding to DA characteristics is significant.

Regards
G2G

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I have used brakeclean on my M&P, Glock and Sig 2340 for quite some time, no noticeable effects. slightly off topic, keep brakeclean away from all Norinco plastic parts.......... :nod:

The HK and Sigs would be nice, but I doubt the difference is worth the price over the M&P and Glock. That price difference will add up in a hurry when buying a large number of guns. Of course selling our Inglis HP to collectors here in Canada and the US would offset a significant amount of that costs, but stupidity will get in the way of that.

 

[BernDawg]

course selling our Inglis HP to collectors here in Canada and the US would offset a significant amount of that costs, but stupidity will get in the way of that.

One can dream but they'll probably go the way of the C1. That being said, I would be one of the first in line to buy one. If only for sentimental value.

 

[Bass ackwards]

Is there any data available to indicate how many times a CF member on ops has had to actually use a handgun ?



 

 

[Snaketnk]

I have no data except for personal anecdotes. There was a few times last year that I was very happy to be carrying my pistol. Usually it was as an air sentry in a LAV or a as a gunner in crowded villages/KC when we had pedestrians swarming around the vehicles (on the move), and the only way to put a weapon on someone was to reach over the side of the vehicle with your pistol. Also, pistols got drawn while searching individuals and when you needed a little bit more intimidation. Nothing scatters a crowd like the sound of a pistol being readied.

Personally I never felt a problem with our pistol except I found the grip a bit small for my hands, and the safety awkward to use. Nothing a couple of really simple modifications couldn't take care of. To me there's a lot more pressing issues in regards to our kit.

PDWs sound great in theory, being issued to vehicle crews etc. But the reality of deployments is that people get thrown around into different roles on a regular basis and your role changes from day to day. Some days I was driving. Others I was in engagements at 300+ metres. the C8 is plenty small and light enough to maneuver with in vehicles.

 

[Angry56789]

Why Berretta?  Why not the Sig Saur P226 which is already in use with certain parts of the CF.

SOF, MPs, Navy boarding parties; At least I "think" I am at least partially correct.

 

[The Bread Guy]

An update.....

First step from MERX:  Price and Availability RequestMore details on what's wanted, as well as projected timeline from here to purchase (Fall 2015) in the attached files.

Process to find a new pistol firing alright, process STOPS

Solicitation W8476-123150/A - PW-$$BM-027-21769 has been cancelled.

Not the only weapon selection process halted - more here.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Meanwhile....

Despite all its bluster about saving money and honouring Canada's armed forces, the Conservative federal government is poised to melt down millions of dollars worth of military memorabilia.

Specifically, the Department of Defence is planning to send 19,000 highly collectable Browning Hi-Power pistols made in Toronto more than 60 years ago to the smelter and destroy them, instead of allowing licensed firearm owners to buy them for hundreds of dollars each.

As reported recently, the Canadian Forces are replacing the Browning Hi-Power semi-automatic pistols starting in the fall 2015. The decommissioned sidearms, the standard military issue pistol for the forces since 1944, are set to be destroyed.

The price of used handguns varies widely but a price of $300 to $500, excluding any military historical value, is common. Assuming an average $400 price tag for the Browning, selling the surplus to licensed collectors could raise more than $7 million in much needed-revenue for the government.

But that's not the plan.

"The Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces are committed to the safe disposal of firearms," wrote forces spokeswoman Josee Hunter in an e-mail Friday. "The standard DND practice for disposing of restricted small arms is destruction through smelting." ....

Toronto Sun/Sun Media, 8 Oct 11

 

[Jarnhamar]

Despite all its bluster about saving money and honouring Canada's armed forces, the Conservative federal government is poised to melt down millions of dollars worth of military memorabilia.

Specifically, the Department of Defence is planning to send 19,000 highly collectable Browning Hi-Power pistols made in Toronto more than 60 years ago to the smelter and destroy them, instead of allowing licensed firearm owners to buy them for hundreds of dollars each.

And can you imagine the opposite?

Conservative government is poised to release 19'000 PISTOLS into the hands of potential criminals and other dangerous offenders! 
WHY aren't we just destroying these death dealing relics of the 50's?

After NSE in Afghanistan (08-09) ordered sergeants and below not to carry pistols because it made them look like officers I couldn't care less about the pistol and saw it for what it really was.
Our pistols may be getting replaced but it will be decades before the shiny new kit syndrome settles down and the soldiers that effectively need pistols manage to pry them from the fingers of you know who.

The brownings we have are obviously well used and abused, not respected very well, but I've shot a well maintained and respected browning on the range and it was incredible to shoot.

 

[GAP]

The PR of selling off those pistols would bite the government in a big way if even one was identified in any criminal activity.....

 

[The Bread Guy]

The PR of selling off those pistols would bite the government in a big way if even one was identified in any criminal activity.....

Yup, and all it would take is ONE.

 

[FlyingDutchman]

There is no winning in politics, only losing less.

Edit: I cannot spell when sick it seems.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Well that is just a pity....

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Makes you wonder what happened to all those FN C1/C2's/SMG's when the military replaced them with the C7?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Makes you wonder what happened to all those FN C1/C2's/SMG's when the military replaced them with the C7?

After sitting around in warehouses rusting for years, a few were saved for museums and the rest were chopped and smelted.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Here's the answer DND came up with re:  why the process has been halted (complete response attached in post here):

As part of the Small Arms Modernization (SAM) project, the Department of National Defence (DND) is assessing options for the replacement of the 9mm Browning High Power and the 9mm Sig Sauer Model 225 pistol with a new
General Service Pistol (GSP), as well as the replacement of the Lee Enfield rifle with a New Canadian Ranger Rifle (NCRR) .... The DND Small Arms Modernization (SAM) Project Management Office (PMO) requested that Public Works and Government Services Canada (PWGSC) cancel both the GSP and the NCRR Price and Availability (P&A) requests on MERX as a result of questions, and requests for clarification, from industry.  The feedback from industry brought the DND SAM PMO to re-evaluate its procurement strategy. The DND SAM PMO is now focusing efforts on clarifying the procurement strategy for the GSP and NCRR with the intent to facilitate future communication with industry.  The comments and observations received from industry in response to the P&A requests will be considered when the final requirements are written.  The replacement of the GSP and NCRR remain a priority for DND.  The next step of the project will be to obtain Preliminary Project Approval (PPA). No additional solicitations will be posted on MERX until after PPA is obtained and an approved procurement strategy is in place ....

 

[captloadie]

It sounds like someone's lobbyists were successful. I hope it is money well spent.

 

[PuckChaser]

We sat in the office one day and tried to figure out a pistol that had all of the mandatory features that DND wanted.... couldn't think of one. Hopefully they'll make it more realistic, especially since they wanted a double action trigger with the same pull weight for the first and second pulls.

 

[Robert0288]

especially since they wanted a double action trigger with the same pull weight for the first and second pulls.

Stupid question and I could just be having a brain fart, but on a DA pistol isn't the first and second pull weight the same?  Its the SA/DA pistols that have different pull weights depending on hammer position.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Correct, DA can be done by either using a stiker like the Glock or M&P or a hammer like the Sig does, most of Sig's pistols can be made DA/SA or DAO (Double Action only)