Replacing the pack system?

[buzgo]

I happened to hear that a Letter of Interest (LOI) had been posted on MERX, related to modular pack systems. It looks like what may be the beginning of the end of the small pack and the new ruck.

http://www.merx.com/English/SUPPLIER_Menu.asp?WCE=Show&TAB=1&PORTAL=MERX&State=7&id=PW-%24%24PR-707-60507&src=osr&FED_ONLY=0&ACTION=&rowcount=&lastpage=&MoreResults=&PUBSORT=0&CLOSESORT=0&IS_SME=Y&hcode=qa%2fkJfsPmRQ6G94rolKgQA%3d%3d

Thoughts? Anyone have any other info?

 

[fraserdw]

Yeah, this was discussed in a DLR road show recently.  Our equipment is all Daisy Chain webbing while the new tac vest will be MOLLE, the CF wants to move to all interchangeable MOLLE by 2016.  The often repeated favorite seems to be either UK's BERGEN 2011 system or US's Gen IV MOLLE system but in CADPAT.  This is timed with the newer lighter, less bulky -25 Celsius sleeping bags that has just come out (Nanok, as I recall).

 

[a_majoor]

So it took more than a decade to get the "new rucksack", only to replace it right away...priceless

 

[fraserdw]

True but in effect, they are listening now.  Most of the current equipment reforms are coming out of soldier feedback.  MOLLE seems to be something the troops screamed the loudest about in terms of pers kit.

 

[jollyjacktar]

So it took more than a decade to get the "new rucksack", only to replace it right away...priceless

On a bright note, if you're a fan of the new soon to be old pack.  It may hit the stores so you'd be able to get one for your personal use.  If you were so inclined.  I was issued the pack for my last trip to the sandbox, it was heads and tails above it's predecessor.  Hopefully what comes after it will be even better for the troops and what they're looking for.

 

[fraserdw]

The new old rucksack is sold in stores now.  SGS sell it through a dealer in Quebec and Manitoba.  They have changed the zipper cover around the sleep carrier to olive from CADPAT so that you cannot exchange.  Other than that it is the same with the compression sack and pouches included.  QSMILTD I think is the dealer in Mb.

 

[MikeL]

The new/current rucksacks and small packs seen in stores are a cheap copy of the CTS packs from what I've read.  On another site the packs were descibed as are poor quality, etc.

http://www.cqmsltd.com/Web_Pages/backpacks_duffle_bags_page_.htm


Looking forward to these new rucks and small packs,  be awhile though until we even see what this new ruck and small pack will be and sometime after then when they start being issued.

 

[buzgo]

It would be cool if we followed the Australian Defense Forces' lead:

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2756008371/m/43420852963

 

[TSpoon]

It would be cool if we followed the Australian Defense Forces' lead:

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2756008371/m/43420852963

Can't get to the link..apparently you need an account on that site to veiw it.What exactly are the Aussies up to ?

 

[x_para76]

I can't tell you how glad I am to hear that the CF is binning the current ruck and small pack system. I've been using a bergan and small pack from Berghaus for the last 10 years and they're so much better than the garbage that issue us. If they'd had the kit trialed and tested by the right people in the first place we probably wouldn't be in this situation. The procurement systems in the CF have to be some of the worst of any modern military. We don't seem to have figured out that buying off of the shelf is a more effective system for a small military than trying to develop kit ourselves.

 

[my72jeep]

Dam and I just got issued my small pack now its obsolete.

 

[PuckChaser]

Damn, I just got my new CTS rucksack! Now I have something else new and shiny I want.

 

[Lerch]

Mystery Ranch?

I'd love to see the SATL and Tactiplane...or the NICE frame and various packs...

 

[fraserdw]

The Aussies have MALICE or SOn of ALICE type pack with lots of MOLLE.  It kinda looks like a Bergen and an ALICE that mated!

 

[PMedMoe]

I'm keeping my old one.  Oh wait, I'll be out before it even gets in the system....  ;D

 

[dapaterson]

I can't tell you how glad I am to hear that the CF is binning the current ruck and small pack system. I've been using a bergan and small pack from Berghaus for the last 10 years and they're so much better than the garbage that issue us. If they'd had the kit trialed and tested by the right people in the first place we probably wouldn't be in this situation. The procurement systems in the CF have to be some of the worst of any modern military. We don't seem to have figured out that buying off of the shelf is a more effective system for a small military than trying to develop kit ourselves.

Do you know who trials kit?  Hint:  It's CF members, in field units, who are given samples to try and assess and identify strengths and weaknesses.  That feedback goes back to those developing requirements.

So, if I read you right, we shouldn't do trials with users, but instead we should let the big headed guys in Ottawa decide everything.



I assume your knowledge of military procurement is as limited as your knowledge of the development process, and just as unsupported by fact.

 

[jollyjacktar]

We were issued the "new" pack during workup training for Roto 7.  IIRC they said that there were at least 60 modifications made during the trial process that was described as exhaustive.

I had an old friend who was part of trials  in the 90's for some gear the Army was investigating.  They were sent to Alert for about a month to test the different pieces of kit.  He said that it did take up to 15 years in some cases for the gear to make it through the identification of need/conception/design/protype/test & trial/adoption/production and lastly issue to the troops.  The back room boys, he said, go to great lengths to get the best gear they can.

Sometimes the system lets you down, such as the Canadian Tire campat Elmer Fudd Garrison Dress fiasco of the 90's.  But the difference in gear I saw between the early 90's when I was in a field unit, to 15 years later for Roto 7 was astounding.  Much of it was from crap to Cadillac in my estimation.  Someone, somewhere, must be doing things right.

 

[fraserdw]

Do you know who trials kit?  Hint:  It's CF members, in field units, who are given samples to try and assess and identify strengths and weaknesses.  That feedback goes back to those developing requirements.

So, if I read you right, we shouldn't do trials with users, but instead we should let the big headed guys in Ottawa decide everything.



I assume your knowledge of military procurement is as limited as your knowledge of the development process, and just as unsupported by fact.

Roger that, there are some CA CWOs and Capts at LFTEU who work very hard at getting trial kit into the hands of the users to abuse

 

[Loachman]

From what I have seen since the 1970s, the general pattern is that whatever is issued for trial purposes is accepted by those wearing/using it because it is better than what they already had and that they know full well that if they reject it for whatever reason, they won't see the improved/corrected version for at least five years.

That happened with the trial webbing that came out in 1977, and subsequently evolved into the 1982 Pattern webbing. Those doing the 82 Pattern trials "liked" it, but complaints were voiced as soon as it became general issue.

Similarly, the Tac Vest was better than the 82 Pattern webbing until it was actually issued and taken to war.

Trial troops generally only have two things to compare - existing kit and the trial kit. They have little or no knowledge of anything else.

Commercial manufacturers, real war, and the internet seem to have changed that somewhat, and I think that the CF has learned a little as a result. I remain somewhat skeptical, however, based upon past observations.

Those observations include trials done by candidates on courses, because that was "convenient" for those conducting the trial. The "right people" concern is a valid one.

 

[fraserdw]

Now is an excellent time to trial new kit, we got a combat experienced Army who has used a variety of GUCCI kit in a war zone instead of or in addition to the issued kit.  The only issue is that we may get new kit based on the needs of the last war we fought and the next war has never been like the last war for any Army in history.