Replacing the pack system?

[buzgo]

Sorry about that LF link.

Basically the ADF is getting a mix of Mystery Ranch and other kit to fill out their various identified needs. So they will have a modular system from assault pack up to full on alpine ruck. With a mix in between.

Regarding trials, from my perspective, the CTS project was a homegrown solution to the clothing and equipment issues we were having. There didn't seem to be a lot of input from industry but... when CTS started prior to 9/11, there weren't a lot of options from industry. So 'we' decided to come up with our own solution and the project got rolling. Once a project gains momentum, its hard to change or stop it. So we end up with a 'so-so' ruck, raingear with reflectors etc etc. The rucksack was designed in the 90s...

They are now looking to industry and using spiral development practices to get stuff out to us quicker and cheaper.

 

[Timmy!]

Damn, I just got my new CTS rucksack! Now I have something else new and shiny I want.

Still waiting for mine..................

 

[R031button]

The Australians have also adopted / are adopting a policy of tearing their issue (ie Infantry and Cooks are not issued the same load bearing equipment) as well as a philosophy of buying less more often, with an aim of cycling kit every couple of years. Source here http://www.defenceandindustry.gov.au/presentations/pdf/presentations/thursday/1520_Blain.pdf

 

[Tank Troll]

I still have the old 64 pattern ruck just kept up dating it. The last one was junk and this one is to friggen big. Hopefully the next one will be better seeing as I still have 10 more BFTs to go.

 

[Old and Tired]

TT:

You know how I feel about that train wreck of a Ruck we're issued now and why.  That's why I use either my 64 pattern or the one that Brian and I worked on about 6 years ago.

One of the things about the Cloth the Soldier kit in general is who SOME stress SOME of the people that were used for the trials.  There is something fundamentally wrong when an Air Force Photo Tech working a Fort Ridiculous on the Rideau is pulled out of a dark room and placed in the trial pool.

The other thing that I find amusing is that, because so many people have invested a great deal of personal reputation on some items that trned out to be junk, any complaints either fall on deaf ears, or get blamed on the end user because we don't understand the "Philosophy" behind the design.

Besides Andy I thought you had a tank (Gwagon these days) to carry your kit.  What ever happened to Death Before Dismount.

DARO

 

[Tank Troll]

TT:

Besides Andy I thought you had a tank (Gwagon these days) to carry your kit.  What ever happened to Death Before Dismount.

DARO

Still got to do the BFT once a year. Last year there was a comment about why I had a different ruck than everyone else. it use to just get passed of as "Cause he is old." How ever it has been mentioned that as the RSM, acting or not I should have the same ruck as the troops.

 

[R031button]

Well it would put a sour taste in the mouths of some had they been jacked up for wearing non issued kit and the RSM is wearing a 64 pattern.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Big fan of the Lowe Alpine Saracen and Eberstock Operator.

I'm not going to complain that the new CTS ruck is being replaced already- it's a kitbag with shoulder straps.

While were at it a new small pack would be nice too.

 

[Lerch]

While were at it a new small pack would be nice too.

I read the Merx request as a complete replacement for the Small Pack and Rucksack.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I read the Merx request as a complete replacement for the Small Pack and Rucksack.

Luckily we've already got a war winning model tested in battle over several years by millions:

1-37 Pattern Belt- for battle webbing, see below picture. Blancoed with KG3

2-37 Pattern Utitlity Pouches Mk2, Pair- for battle webbing, see picture below. Blancoed with KG3 (Mk1 pouches are acceptable, Mk3 pouches are not)

3-37 Pattern Intrenching tool, cover and handle- for battle webbing, see below picture. Blancoed with KG3

4-37 Pattern Cross Straps, pair- for battle webbing, see below picture. Blancoed with KG3

5-37 Pattern Small Pack- for battle webbing, see bottom pictures. Blancoed with KG3

6-Tan Rain Cape (mentioned at the bottom of this page)

7-Gas Cape held in place with Utility straps

8-No4 Spike Bayonet with Scabbard in 37 Pattern Frog- for battle webbing, see picture below. Frog blancoed with KG3

9-37 Pattern Water Bottle Cradle and Water Bottle with cork- for battle webbing, all types of cradle and all types of water bottle are accebtable, see below picture. Cradle blancoed with KG3

10-Hawkins Mine (detailed in weapons section)

-37 Pattern L Straps, Pair- for battle webbing, see bottom pictures. Blancoed with KG3

 

[buzgo]

The Mystery Ranch NICE frame system is already in use, in CADPAT TW,  with the AGL project. CANSOF is using some MR pack variants as well. It wouldn't be a huge leap to assume that MR would be interested in further CF business. They are experienced with large scale production of their gear - ADF and USMC both use MR packs.

It would be pretty sweet to turn in the book bag and get issued an MR 3 day assault pack...

 

[MikeL]

MR 3DAP would be better then our current small pack  but IMO if they bring it in they would also need to bring in a larger day pack for certain pers like those carrying radios.  If they keep the "small pack" is for 24hrs and less then the 3DAP would not meet that,  at least not for Pl Signallers, etc

Also,  I don't believe the USMC is currently using any Mystery Ranch packs.  The current USMC ruck and their equiv to the smallpack is designed by Arc'teryx,  I believe the new ruck they are bringing in has had input/improvements by MR though.  The upcoming USMC Ruck( FILBE(?)) does look pretty good,  as it was supposed to overcome issues their last ruck had which is similar to the same ones we have with ours.

 

[fraserdw]

FILBE is correct, it is very MR inspired, seen one on EBAY for 900 bucks.  I so wanted it.  It is an incredible design better than an average MR pack.

Here's a link:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/GENUINE-RARE-EAGLE-FILBE-NEWEST-USMC-ALL-BACKPACKS-SYSTEM-COYOTE-BROWN-NEW-/230800510240?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item35bcc84d20

 

[buzgo]

MR was brought in a sub-contractor by Eagle to 'tweak' the design.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Not ever trade needs a rucksack capable of humping 90 pounds comfortably or a small pack (assault pack) they can live out of for 1 to 3 days.

I think the problem with the CF is that we try and reach a 70% solution with our kit.  A clerk doesn't need a high end chest rig.

What if we had 2 scales of issue.  Standard and <Insert clever catch word>.

Many trades can get by with the CTS rucksack for the occasional BFT,  tacvest for the PWT2 each year small pack filled with rain jacket, gloves and a lunch.

For other field uints that spend time really using this shit they get issued an intelligently designed assault bag. Instead of going through the bullshit finding companies to manufacture it to some weirdo mythical standard and fighting over who gets dibs on designing the buckles, buy some off the shealf bags.  Same with the rucksack.  3PPCLI is light infantry? Buy a bunch of bags from eberstock. Give the members of 1 Cdn Dental unit the CTS ruck.
Know what I mean?
Having a one size fits all approach just doesn't work.    At work I sit on a ratty chair that's missing a wheel and every time I lean back I almost fall. I've seen other chairs in places that probably cost have half of what I make in a month or pretty close.  We don't buy $1200 chairs for everyone in the CF, why would we buy $900 rucksack/assault bag packages for all?

 

[fraserdw]

In effect, we have done that, Pattern 82 is for us "WOGs" and HQ types and CTS is for the light infantry.  CTS has issues but it's carrying capacity is what is needed to go foot mobile for 2 weeks.  What would be nice is a pack system designed on the same frame, where you can change out 1 Day pack; 25 Litres, 3 Day Pack; 65 Litres, 7 Day Pack; 90 Litres and Long Range Recon "hide in the bush for a month"; 140 litres Pack.  everyone would get the 1 and 3 Day packs with a frame but only infantry would receive the 7 day and only recce units would receive the Recon Pack.  All common frame all with interchangeable pouches that also interchange with a tac vest (for others) and chest rig (for infantry).  Also the 1 day pack would be functionally fittable to the larger packs.  The packs and vests should have a common hydration system as well.

 

[buzgo]

Great idea but the only way to do it, is to continue on the current path and wipe the slate clean as if CTS never issued packs and tacvest. The current pouches won't work with MOLLE based systems and vice versa.

 

[Jarnhamar]

In effect, we have done that, Pattern 82 is for us "WOGs" and HQ types and CTS is for the light infantry.  CTS has issues but it's carrying capacity is what is needed to go foot mobile for 2 weeks.  What would be nice is a pack system designed on the same frame, where you can change out 1 Day pack; 25 Litres, 3 Day Pack; 65 Litres, 7 Day Pack; 90 Litres and Long Range Recon "hide in the bush for a month"; 140 litres Pack.  everyone would get the 1 and 3 Day packs with a frame but only infantry would receive the 7 day and only recce units would receive the Recon Pack.  All common frame all with interchangeable pouches that also interchange with a tac vest (for others) and chest rig (for infantry).  Also the 1 day pack would be functionally fittable to the larger packs.  The packs and vests should have a common hydration system as well.

Interesting idea.

 

[PuckChaser]

In effect, we have done that, Pattern 82 is for us "WOGs" and HQ types and CTS is for the light infantry.  CTS has issues but it's carrying capacity is what is needed to go foot mobile for 2 weeks.  What would be nice is a pack system designed on the same frame, where you can change out 1 Day pack; 25 Litres, 3 Day Pack; 65 Litres, 7 Day Pack; 90 Litres and Long Range Recon "hide in the bush for a month"; 140 litres Pack.  everyone would get the 1 and 3 Day packs with a frame but only infantry would receive the 7 day and only recce units would receive the Recon Pack.  All common frame all with interchangeable pouches that also interchange with a tac vest (for others) and chest rig (for infantry).  Also the 1 day pack would be functionally fittable to the larger packs.  The packs and vests should have a common hydration system as well.

Are you saying there is one common frame that you can mount all 4 packs to? So you'd have to disassemble your ruck to move down into a smaller pack, and reassemble later? That would have to be one heck of a system.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'd suggest;

Day pack- backpack for every day use across the CF. Much like our schoolbag smallpack.
Assault pack- members who require it and would use it in the field. Probably be used in place of the rucksack in many cases.

Standard rucksack-CTS type rucksack across the CF (if it's deemed even required, which it probably even isn't considering how many units use smallpacks for the BFT)
Enhanced rucksack- for members/units identified as requiring a more field appropriate ruck.

TV type issue for the masses and higher end modular chest rig for where it's appropriate.

ability to attach (empty) assault pack and camelbak to the ruck.
We experimented with putting a kitted out smallpack inside the CTS ruck to just pull it out and go but we lost a lot of space doing that.  And the smallpack is build stupid.