Replacing the Subs

[FJAG]

If you don't build them before you need them, you won't have them when you do need them.

That is the lesson we should be taking from 2014 onward, not "we can get by with less".

Funny you should mention that. I'm just reviewing the interview notes I have from a former CDS who laid out the difficulty he had in convincing the civilian bureaucracy and political leadership of the requirements beyond those deployed on immediate operations. A particular problem is convincing them that items bought under UOR (e.g. the first dozen M777s and the Chinooks) should not be immediately disposed of once the operation ends. Problematic in that is that those items were bought without full life cycle sustainment and suddenly the CAF needs to convince the govt that a) yes we need it for a longer duration and b) that's going to cost you a whole lot more ongoing money into the future.

Effectively, DND does not really have a budget per se. What it has are certain annual fixed costs to pay personnel and keep the O&M lights on in the infrastructure. Everything above that is a one-off procurement decision with approved project costs for the future. Effectively you have to go back to the government frequently to get authorization for this and that. It is not a system wherein you have a specified future funding model that lets the military make long term plans or rapid decisions on equipment.

Like you, I'm of the view that you always need to have the equipment and the appropriate level of NCOs and officers to man it. We can always recruit and train the bulk of the manning (or draw it from the reserves) when the time comes.

Do you really think all those "crews" freed up are going to want to sail subs, I think not.

No more so than I think that we can actually man 15 CSCs under our current way of doing things. Like anything, I think you need a good propaganda campaign to induce people to join. In part that requires making serving attractive. That starts by having modern equipment and a mission to work with.

 

[Stoker]

No more so than I think that we can actually man 15 CSCs under our current way of doing things. Like anything, I think you need a good propaganda campaign to induce people to join. In part that requires making serving attractive. That starts by having modern equipment and a mission to work with.

We never had more than four boats in the RCN and it was mostly a volunteer service. I would say we have about two boats crews that can probably sail in a pinch. I don't think the grown ups have realized that 6 to 8 boats worth of crews is remotely attainable. You are right that once new boats are selected officially there needs to be a masive PR campaign along with the CSC to try and attract new sailors. You would also think that recruiting efforts would be ramping up. One of the biggest attractions for recruiting for the RCN in the Great Lakes is no longer happening.

 

[Swampbuggy]

We never had more than four boats in the RCN and it was mostly a volunteer service. I would say we have about two boats crews that can probably sail in a pinch. I don't think the grown ups have realized that 6 to 8 boats worth of crews is remotely attainable. You are right that once new boats are selected officially there needs to be a masive PR campaign along with the CSC to try and attract new sailors. You would also think that recruiting efforts would be ramping up. One of the biggest attractions for recruiting for the RCN in the Great Lakes is no longer happening.

Sorry, just for clarification, will there be no Great Lakes Deployment this summer?

 

[Stoker]

Sorry, just for clarification, will there be no Great Lakes Deployment this summer?

As far as I know there is, just not the usual platforms.

 

[GR66]

As far as I know there is, just not the usual platforms.

 

[Swampbuggy]

As far as I know there is, just not the usual platforms.

I was hoping for another chance to see an AOPS this year. Missed it last time.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We never had more than four boats in the RCN and it was mostly a volunteer service. I would say we have about two boats crews that can probably sail in a pinch. I don't think the grown ups have realized that 6 to 8 boats worth of crews is remotely attainable. You are right that once new boats are selected officially there needs to be a masive PR campaign along with the CSC to try and attract new sailors. You would also think that recruiting efforts would be ramping up. One of the biggest attractions for recruiting for the RCN in the Great Lakes is no longer happening.

I will give the RCN on this coast credit for trying very hard to get into the public's eye. Convincing voters that you are worthy of the taxes they pay is a necessity along with making the Services a worthy place for a career. Many of the recent immigrants have a very low view of military service, based on their country of origin. The RCN on this coast needs signage in multiple languages explaining itself to these immigrants, with messaging tailored to them.

 

[FJAG]

We never had more than four boats in the RCN

Squirrel moment. That comment made me wonder how many subs the RCN had in WW2. Turns out only two and they were captured U Boats taken over after VE Day.

• HMCS U 190 (surrendered and recommissioned U-boat)
• HMCS U 889 (surrendered and recommissioned U-boat)

 

[dimsum]

I will give the RCN on this coast credit for trying very hard to get into the public's eye. Convincing voters that you are worthy of the taxes they pay is a necessity along with making the Services a worthy place for a career. Many of the recent immigrants have a very low view of military service, based on their country of origin. The RCN on this coast needs signage in multiple languages explaining itself to these immigrants, with messaging tailored to them.

Didn’t stop them lining up for tours though.

 

[OldSolduer]

If you don't build them before you need them, you won't have them when you do need them.

This, sir, is the Canadian way of running a department of defence.

Pre WW1 and WW2 we did exactly what you stated.

 

[dimsum]

This, sir, is the Canadian way of running a department of defence.

Pre WW1 and WW2 we did exactly what you stated.

…and this time around we can’t convert car factories to building Hurricanes within months.

 

[Kirkhill]

…and this time around we can’t convert car factories to building Hurricanes within months.

Although...





There is a lot more flexibility in a robotized assembly line then there was in those old chain driven lines of WW2.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

…and this time around we can’t convert car factories to building Hurricanes within months.

Well we could, but who is going to fly Hurricanes vs manpads?

 

[MilEME09]

Well we could, but who is going to fly Hurricanes vs manpads?

Don't worry, it will be an all electric hurricane, to small a heat signature for a heat seeker to lock on. winning

 

[KevinB]

Although...

View attachment 85374

View attachment 85375

There is a lot more flexibility in a robotized assembly line then there was in those old chain driven lines of WW2.

Yes, but…

You need some very specific items to make things like comms, FCS, EO/IO items.

Heck even armor isn’t just RH steel anymore.

 

[Kirkhill]

Yes, but…

You need some very specific items to make things like comms, FCS, EO/IO items.

Heck even armor isn’t just RH steel anymore.

So we will have to do the other thing.

And wrt the Hurricane...

Not much difference between the flight characteristics of a Hurricane, a fighter-bomber, and a lot of the UAVs flying over Ukraine and Russia these days.

 

[KevinB]

So we will have to do the other thing.

And wrt the Hurricane...

Not much difference between the flight characteristics of a Hurricane, a fighter-bomber, and a lot of the UAVs flying over Ukraine and Russia these days.

The base platform isn’t the issue in most cases. The enabling characteristics it has aren’t easily replicated.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Are we still talking a submarine replacement?

 

[KevinB]

Are we still talking a submarine replacement?

I’m not sure anymore

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well yes, but no