Replacing the Subs

[suffolkowner]

I've said this before and call me a pessimist but:

Canada will be out of the submarine business once the last one goes. The GoC has zero interest in it and quite frankly this GoC is more interested in showing off socks, mugging for the camera and telling everyone how to conduct their business.

A possibility for sure, but our allies are obviously not happy with us and we have made some promised investments witness
88 F35's instead of 65
14+ P8's
8 MRTT's is the VIP going to be a full MRTT too?
AEW like where did that come from

Also we only have another long hard 1+ year of this current government thank god

 

[Kirkhill]

I am not sure there is a way to make (what I think) you are suggesting work.

The bandwidth requirements vs the laws of physics alone make your idea a non-starter.

I presume that you are referring to comms. How about if the sub communicated by couriers? UUVs moving between vessels. Or breaking surface for burst transmissions?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I presume that you are referring to comms. How about if the sub communicated by couriers? UUVs moving between vessels. Or breaking surface for burst transmissions?

You said put the CP underwater. That implies real time comms. Not going to happen, unless you have a new and revolutionary technology up your sleeve.

 

[Maxman1]

How would you make it work?

For me, as an infanteer:

 

[Kirkhill]

You said put the CP underwater. That implies real time comms. Not going to happen, unless you have a new and revolutionary technology up your sleeve.

I think the highlighted bit is the open question for me. I always assume a lag even in real time. If so then any plan has to incorporate that lag regardless of how long that lag might be.

The other part is: how much can be done continuously and autonomously without direct intervention? At some point declaring weapons free and hitting a big red button might be the solution but how about, for example passively monitoring arrays of active unmanned sensors? Or having sensors report on contact....?

 

[KevinB]

So I’ve made the mistake about asking about subsurface communication before, in a sub underwater…

Let’s just say it’s not a topic for OS discussing

 

[OldSolduer]

For me, as an infanteer:

 

[OldSolduer]

For me, as an infanteer:

Reboot that computer doesn’t mean kicking it…right?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

So I’ve made the mistake about asking about subsurface communication before, in a sub underwater…

Let’s just say it’s not a topic for OS discussing

Judging by the testing I help the SFU Underwater Research Lab do in the 1990, the term "Hard" was frequently used. I am sure the tech is better, but not as good as the movies make it to be.

 

[dimsum]

I've said this before and call me a pessimist but:

Canada will be out of the submarine business once the last one goes. The GoC has zero interest in it and quite frankly this GoC is more interested in showing off socks, mugging for the camera and telling everyone how to conduct their business.

The last time any govt had any interest in subs was the 90s.

 

[GR66]

ISE Unveils Its Revolutionary Subsea Surveillance Team

new_item_en

www.canadiandefencereview.com

A great Canadian-made option for AUV's to supplement our submarine fleet. XL UUV's to extend our maritime domain awareness combined with a towed, underwater docking system which could be deployed from our AOPS or MCDV's to recharge the UUVs/retrieve data without the UUV needing to be physically recovered or even to surface.

ISE even has under-ice experience with its UUV's:

Theseus was originally developed to lay long lengths of fiber-optic cable under the Arctic ice pack. The vehicle completed successful deployments to the Arctic in 1995 and 1996. During the 1996 deployment, several 220 km cables were laid in 600 meter water depths under a 2.5 meter thick ice pack, establishing an AUV endurance record of over 60 hours – all under ice.

 

[Underway]

Canadian Patrol Submarine Project: Hanwha Ocean Inks Partnerships With Three Local Companies

Korea pushing hard for that sub contract.

Their biggest hurdle honestly is that they are not a NATO builder. RCN submariners cross train with NATO DE subs from Germany, Netherlands, Norway and others all the time, including coursing. NATO subs all are built and run in similar ways (following NATO doctrine). Korea may not be anything like this.

 

[Gorgo]

Korean subs are all based on German designs, BTW

 

[Underway]

Korean subs are all based on German designs, BTW

The KSIII is a long way away from German designs, even if Hanwha got their start copying them.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Korean subs are all based on German designs, BTW

As are technically are all the Japanese cars, Their whole industry got kickstarted by the British car industry postwar.

 

[KevinB]

As are technically are all the Japanese cars, Their whole industry got kickstarted by the British car industry postwar.

Blatantly false, Japanese cars work

 

[YZT580]

Blatantly false, Japanese cars work

so did my 58 oxford. It wasn't until the unions started muckin' around that quality went downhill

 

[GK .Dundas]

British cars are are more socially acceptable then services of a professional dominatrix.
But both fulfill basically the same need although a dominatrix might actually be a little cheaper...

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Blatantly false, Japanese cars work

Not in the 50's and 60's when they started by copying British cars.

 

[Happy Guy]

Canada to look at new submarines, and Trudeau doesn't rule out nuclear option

But experts split on whether nuclear subs are necessary for Arctic patrols.

nationalpost.com

The Liberals’ new defence policy is promising to at least consider expanding and renewing Canada’s submarine fleet, and the prime minister is not ruling out that nuclear submarines could be part of that upgrade.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said the government will start a process to determine what would be the best fit as a replacement. While the defence review suggested the subs would be “conventionally powered,” Trudeau didn’t rule out considering a nuclear-powered fleet.

Royal Canadian Navy not considering nuclear-powered subs despite Trudeau claim

Royal Canadian Navy isn't looking at the option of nuclear submarines despite earlier suggestions by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Read on.

winnipegsun.com

The Royal Canadian Navy is not looking at the option of nuclear submarines despite earlier suggestions by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to the contrary.

The navy has been focused on the potential acquisition of convention-powered submarines for the past several years to eventually replace the existing Victoria-class submarines, according to emails from National Defence to this newspaper.

“The RCN is completing an analysis of conventional submarines that meet Canada’s requirement to patrol all three of its oceans,” National Defence spokeswoman Frédérica Dupuis confirmed in the latest email.

Canadian defence officials have already met with officials from South Korea, Spain, France and Sweden about conventional-powered subs. Norway and Germany have also pitched Canada about a program for such subs.

The possibility of the acquisition of a nuclear-powered fleet was introduced by Trudeau on April 8 during a news conference for the release of his government’s updated defence policy.

The prime minister said the government would start a process to determine what would be the best sub to replace the Victoria-class boats and in response to a question didn’t rule out considering a nuclear-powered fleet. “That is certainly what we will be looking at as to what type of submarines are most appropriate for Canada’s responsibility and protecting the longest coastline in the world,” he said.

Trudeau’s comments came as a surprise to departmental and military officials, defence sources confirm. Just hours earlier departmental and Canadian Forces officers had briefed journalists about the updated government defence policy, noting that conventional-powered submarines were being examined. No mention was made of the nuclear option in the policy update.

It was believed the prime minister misspoke, but officials were not allowed to correct that, according to defence sources.

The prime minister’s office did not provide comment.

Nuclear-powered submarines have more endurance and can stay underwater for months at a time without having to resurface, but the price tag is significant.

Australia wants to purchase at least five nuclear-powered submarines with help from the United States and Britain. The Australian government has estimated that program will cost around $300 billion over 30 years.

The last time Canada looked at nuclear-powered submarines was in the late 1980s under then Prime Minister Brian Mulroney. But that proposed purchase was scuttled because of the excessive cost and the end of the Cold War.

The Trudeau government had already earlier rejected the idea of a Canadian nuclear submarine fleet.

In April 2023, this newspaper reported that the Royal Canadian Navy had made a pitch to the Liberal government for the purchase of as many as 12 new conventional-powered submarines at a cost of $60 billion. The navy had been pushing for the acquisition of those submarines to be included in the Liberal government’s Defence Policy Update, but that wasn’t done.

The PM, MND Blair, the Foreign Minister also mentioned the possible procurement of submarines. Does it means Canada will replace the Victoria Class submarines ? IMO - maybe, but it is encouraging to hear the leader and senior politicians talking about. Like any skeptic, I'll believe it when the government announces it and actually provides the project office with sufficient funds to buy subs. I don't think that it is realistic for Canada to buy nuclear subs.