Replacing the Subs

[SeaKingTacco]

Diesel is 11.6 KWh/kg. That surprised me. I thought it was higher.

I knew that Hydrogen was the rockstar of energy density. It is just super pesky to store (stupid hydrogen embrittlement….)

 

[OldSolduer]

Diesel is 11.6 KWh/kg. That surprised me. I thought it was higher.

I knew that Hydrogen was the rockstar of energy density. It is just super pesky to store (stupid hydrogen embrittlement….)

I recall there was a Zeppelin that didn’t fair well when it literally burned and crashed.

And no I wasn’t there - I know what y’all are thinking

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Honestly, whatever the Dutch buy should be our choice. They are looking at a larger more oceanic sub for their next build. If I were King for a day I would jump on that project and just tell the Dutch, "whatever you pick is good enough for us".

They can even build it in their yards to a certain point (with some post delivery work on RCN secret stuff done here).

So far, the Dutch have narrowed their choices down to three candidates :

• Saab & Damen A26 NL submarine;
• Naval Group Black Sword submarine (conventional Barracuda); and
• TKMS Type 212CD E submarine.

Another option is the TKMS Type 212CD that both Germany (2) and Norway (4) are buying, with construction of the first boat is to start this year.

The other two options are the South Korean Dosan Ahn Changho-class submarines (aka KS-III) and the Japanese Taigei class submarines

Of note, both the Dosan and Taigei subs are already in service.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We could buy used Sōryū-class subs as they come out of service as well. That would be in keeping with our typical way of doing things.

 

[KevinB]

We could buy used Sōryū-class subs as they come out of service as well. That would be in keeping with our typical way of doing things.

And they worked out so well last time…

 

[Good2Golf]

I recall there was a Zeppelin that didn’t fair well when it literally burned and crashed.

And no I wasn’t there - I know what y’all are thinking

2/3 survived. Majority who perished died from…diesel burns…

 

[MilEME09]

And they worked out so well last time…

Atleast the Japanese maintain their kit

 

[Good2Golf]

Diesel is 11.6 KWh/kg. That surprised me. I thought it was higher.

I knew that Hydrogen was the rockstar of energy density. It is just super pesky to store (stupid hydrogen embrittlement….)

It’s because of the unit mass denominator, vice volume. By volume, Diesel is about 10-12% more energy than gasoline because it’s that much denser. By mass, it’s about a wash…but non-pressurized petrofuels are dispensed by volume, so diesel comes off looking/being pretty good.

Rock Star is reserved for Uranium…

1,100,000 kWh/kg.

 

[KevinB]

It’s because of the unit mass denominator, vice volume. By volume, Diesel is about 10-12% more energy than gasoline because it’s that much denser. By mass, it’s about a wash…but non-pressurized petrofuels are dispensed by volume, so diesel comes off looking/being pretty good.

Rock Star is reserved for Uranium…

1,100,000 kWh/kg.

So use a CANDU reactor your saying...

 

[Good2Golf]

So use a CANDU reactor your saying...

Or a PAKDU or INDU reactor…

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Or a PAKDU or INDU reactor…

Canada spreading nuclear happiness..........

 

[Spencer100]

Nuclear is the solution. GE S9G is the answer. The only question is the crew RCN or USN because someone is going to do it.

 

[JMCanada]

GE S9G estimated power: 210,000 kWt (thermal)
Slowpoke-2: 20 kWt

Does anyone really think that the Slowpoke-2 reactor would suffice for a SSN?

S9G Next Generation Reactor / High Energy Density Core

www.globalsecurity.org

edited to add...

And regarding fuels to produce hydrogen for fuel cells (by "reformers"), because of the danger and inefficiency of storing hydrogen:
methanol: 6.2 kWh/kg (reformers under development by TKMS)
ethanol: 7.8 kWh/kg (reformers under development by Navantia)

 

[GR66]

GE S9G estimated power: 210,000 kWt (thermal)
Slowpoke-2: 20 kWt

Does anyone really think that the Slowpoke-2 reactor would suffice for a SSN?

S9G Next Generation Reactor / High Energy Density Core

www.globalsecurity.org

edited to add...

And regarding fuels to produce hydrogen for fuel cells (by "reformers"), because of the danger and inefficiency of storing hydrogen:
methanol: 6.2 kWh/kg (reformers under development by TKMS)
ethanol: 7.8 kWh/kg (reformers under development by Navantia)

I don't think you'd use a Slowpoke reactor to power the sub but rather use it to produce the heat required to run a Stirling engine to keep the batteries charged while submerged.

 

[JMCanada]

I don't think you'd use a Slowpoke reactor to power the sub but rather use it to produce the heat required to run a Stirling engine to keep the batteries charged while submerged.

Still, it's only 20KW while Swedish submarines have 2x 75 KW Stirling engines. German AIP is about 250KW (2x 125) IIRC.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The distinction is irrelevant. The Slow Poke still has the word "nuclear" attached to it and the anti-nuclear crowd is still going to go bat crazy.

If you are going to go nuclear regardless of that crowd, then go the whole way with proper nuke boats.

 

[BdaDug]

Just finished reading a bit about the Dutch programme. Its telling that The Netherlands is building 4 new subs to defend a coastline that is only 450km's long and that we have only 4 subs to defend/patrol a coastline that is the world's longest. I checked the total coastline for PEI, its more than double Holland's, New Brunswick's is 4x bigger and BC's over 50x. Everywhere you look, at virtually every metric you look at, we are pitifully underequipped.

Is most of Canada's coastline actually worth defending though?

The distinction is irrelevant. The Slow Poke still has the word "nuclear" attached to it and the anti-nuclear crowd is still going to go bat crazy.

If you are going to go nuclear regardless of that crowd, then go the whole way with proper nuke boats.

Well, there are 7 SLowpoke2 reactors operating in Canada right now (including one at RMC Canada) so its not impossible to imagine they could be accepted for military use. SLOWPOKE Nuclear Reactors in Canada

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

That's not the point, BD. There are also 24 CANDU reactors in Canada (including five decommissioned), but all were built before the "China Syndrome*" anti-nukes lobby made it impossible to build anything nuclear in Canada. My point is, if the GoC is willing to ignore this lobby, then go for full scale nuclear powered vessels.

*: It's an old movie with Jane Fonda and Jack Lemon as the heroes. Look it up.

 

[dapaterson]

Well, there are 7 SLowpoke2 reactors operating in Canada right now (including one at RMC Canada) so its not impossible to imagine they could be accepted for military use. SLOWPOKE Nuclear Reactors in Canada

Most of those reactors have been decommissioned. Only three SLOWPOKE (RMC, Polytechnique and U of West Indies) remain in operation.

 

[GR66]

Still, it's only 20KW while Swedish submarines have 2x 75 KW Stirling engines. German AIP is about 250KW (2x 125) IIRC.

The reactor could certainly be scaled up to provide the required power.

The Slowpoke-3 put out significantly more power (and I'm sure was much larger physically), but I'm sure that a version of the correct size/output could likely be built.

• The SLOWPOKE Demonstration Reactor (SDR or SLOWPOKE-3; 2-10 MWth) at AECL's Whiteshell Nuclear Research Establishment operated 1987–1989 (start of construction 1985).