Replacing the Subs

[suffolkowner]

I would hope that any government sending a representative anywhere would also include SME's, and in this case Submariners (not just a politician).

I wonder how deep that pool is in poland? One sub? 40 yrs old ?

 

[Czech_pivo]

Two horse race.

Canada narrows choice of new submarine suppliers to Germany, South Korea

BERLIN — Government officials say Canada has narrowed down its shopping list for its next fleet of submarines to those made by a German and a South Korean supplier. Canada plans to replace its current fleet of four aging submarines over the next decade with up to 12 new subs. Ottawa says...

halifax.citynews.ca

 

[calculus]

Two horse race.

Canada narrows choice of new submarine suppliers to Germany, South Korea

BERLIN — Government officials say Canada has narrowed down its shopping list for its next fleet of submarines to those made by a German and a South Korean supplier. Canada plans to replace its current fleet of four aging submarines over the next decade with up to 12 new subs. Ottawa says...

halifax.citynews.ca

And the GoC news release:

Government of Canada advances to next step in Canadian Patrol Submarine Project procurement - Canada.ca

Through Canada’s defence policy, Our North, Strong and Free, the Government of Canada is providing members of the Royal Canadian Navy with the equipment they need to keep Canadians safe and maintain current and future operational readiness. Canada has the longest coastline in the world, and it...

www.canada.ca

Exciting!

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Go! SK! Go!

(my opinion, not forcing anyone to share it)

 

[calculus]

And the GoC news release:

Government of Canada advances to next step in Canadian Patrol Submarine Project procurement - Canada.ca

Through Canada’s defence policy, Our North, Strong and Free, the Government of Canada is providing members of the Royal Canadian Navy with the equipment they need to keep Canadians safe and maintain current and future operational readiness. Canada has the longest coastline in the world, and it...

www.canada.ca

Exciting!

More, from Naval News:

Canada down selects two shipbuilders for future Canadian Patrol Submarine Project - Naval News

The Government of Canada has announced that it has shortlisted two major shipbuilders to continue the procurement process for Canada's future patrol submarine project (CPSP), which will replace the current fleet of Victoria-class submarines.

www.navalnews.com

 

[calculus]

Would like to know if the German offering will be the 212 CD, or the larger CD E variant that was offered to the Dutch:

I will note that the E variant is still considered developmental, while the CD is under construction for both Germany and Norway, so presumably less risky. The larger E might be better suited for our expeditionary needs, however. The Dutch, who also have a significant expeditionary requirement, interestingly chose the French Orca over this sub.

 

[Czech_pivo]

And the GoC news release:

Government of Canada advances to next step in Canadian Patrol Submarine Project procurement - Canada.ca

Through Canada’s defence policy, Our North, Strong and Free, the Government of Canada is providing members of the Royal Canadian Navy with the equipment they need to keep Canadians safe and maintain current and future operational readiness. Canada has the longest coastline in the world, and it...

www.canada.ca

Exciting!

In my head I can see HMCS Harry DeWolf assisting HMCS Terror through the North West Passage from east to west to its new berth at Esquimalt, marking the first time a Canadian submarine has traversed the arctic.

This will become the preferred method of going east to west and west to east for our subs, skipping the Panama Canal completely. Spending even more time in our neck of the woods instead of wasting time/effort traveling thousands of extra miles through the canal.

 

[Czech_pivo]

And the GoC news release:

Government of Canada advances to next step in Canadian Patrol Submarine Project procurement - Canada.ca

Through Canada’s defence policy, Our North, Strong and Free, the Government of Canada is providing members of the Royal Canadian Navy with the equipment they need to keep Canadians safe and maintain current and future operational readiness. Canada has the longest coastline in the world, and it...

www.canada.ca

Exciting!

I've also read that Carney announced that he will be touring Hanwa's facility in SK in October.

 

[calculus]

A bit more here from Murray Brewster at CBC:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/carney-germany-trade-security-submarines-1.7617600

 

[Halifax Tar]

I really believe SK is the best way to go. I think we need to pivot away from Europe.

 

[calculus]

Got this comparison of the 212 CD and 212 CD E from ChatGPT:

Comparison: Type 212CD vs. Type 212CD E

[th]

Feature​

[/th][th]

Type 212CD (German/Norwegian)​

[/th][th]

Type 212CD E (Expeditionary concept)​

[/th]​

[td]Operator(s)[/td][td]German Navy and Royal Norwegian Navy.[/td][td]Proposed to the Royal Netherlands Navy (unsuccessful).[/td] [td]Displacement[/td][td]Surface: ~2,500 tons
Submerged: ~2,800 tons.[/td][td]Surface: ~3,100 tons
Submerged: ~3,450 tons.[/td] [td]Length[/td][td]~73 meters.[/td][td]>80 meters.[/td] [td]Purpose[/td][td]Designed for operations primarily in the shallow waters of the Baltic and North Seas, with advanced stealth capabilities for use in northern maritime environments.[/td][td]An extended design with greater fuel capacity and accommodation space for longer endurance and extended overseas missions.[/td] [td]Key design feature[/td][td]A "diamond shape" faceted outer hull to reduce the submarine's sonar signature.[/td][td]Shares the same core systems as the standard 212CD but with a longer hull insert to increase fuel capacity and accommodation space.[/td] [td]Status[/td][td]In production for Germany and Norway.[/td][td]Not selected for production.[/td]

The E variant seems to be more comparable to the KSS 111 than the 212 CD. If it's just a hull stretch, it may not be as risky as I previously stated.

 

[calculus]

That didn't work for some reason. Here is the comparison:

Comparison: Type 212CD vs. Type 212CD E

Feature	Type 212CD (German/Norwegian)	Type 212CD E (Expeditionary concept)
Operator(s)	German Navy and Royal Norwegian Navy.	Proposed to the Royal Netherlands Navy (unsuccessful).
Displacement	Surface: ~2,500 tons Submerged: ~2,800 tons.	Surface: ~3,100 tons Submerged: ~3,450 tons.
Length	~73 meters.	80 meters.
Purpose	Designed for operations primarily in the shallow waters of the Baltic and North Seas, with advanced stealth capabilities for use in northern maritime environments.	An extended design with greater fuel capacity and accommodation space for longer endurance and extended overseas missions.
Key design feature	A "diamond shape" faceted outer hull to reduce the submarine's sonar signature.	Shares the same core systems as the standard 212CD but with a longer hull insert to increase fuel capacity and accommodation space.
Status	In production for Germany and Norway.	Not selected for production.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I really believe SK is the best way to go. I think we need to pivot away from Europe.

I agree, for two reasons:

1) even if we pick the 212CD (nay variant), there is no way they can be delivered on time; and,

2) I can see the Koreans offering to build up a much greater infrastructure than TKMS for support and even major repairs in Canada, even to the extent of being able to build them here, should the need arise. Remember, that would be useful to SK also, because SK is a small country (in size) and if the balloon goes up in their nick of the woods, they may quickly need some place offshore to build their own or repair/maintain them. Canada's West Coast could be providential.

 

[PHughes]

If

I agree, for two reasons:

1) even if we pick the 212CD (nay variant), there is no way they can be delivered on time; and,

2) I can see the Koreans offering to build up a much greater infrastructure than TKMS for support and even major repairs in Canada, even to the extent of being able to build them here, should the need arise. Remember, that would be useful to SK also, because SK is a small country (in size) and if the balloon goes up in their nick of the woods, they may quickly need some place offshore to build their own or repair/maintain them. Canada's West Coast could be providential.

I agree, for two reasons:

1) even if we pick the 212CD (nay variant), there is no way they can be delivered on time; and,

2) I can see the Koreans offering to build up a much greater infrastructure than TKMS for support and even major repairs in Canada, even to the extent of being able to build them here, should the need arise. Remember, that would be useful to SK also, because SK is a small country (in size) and if the balloon goes up in their nick of the woods, they may quickly need some place offshore to build their own or repair/maintain them. Canada's West Coast could be providential.

If Korea proposes their Batch 3 boat, as speculated, they won’t make the delivery schedule either

There is so little publicly available data about the tech specs and mission capabilities of the the two possible proposal boats it really is all about speculating at this time

 

[KevinB]

There is so little publicly available data about the tech specs and mission capabilities of the the two possible proposal boats it really is all about speculating at this time

The Silent Service after all.
Undersea Warfare folks (from Submariners to Industry) don't like publicity, and many companies do their best to hide their specs other than to purchasers.

 

[Rainbow1910]

I agree, for two reasons:

1) even if we pick the 212CD (nay variant), there is no way they can be delivered on time; and,

2) I can see the Koreans offering to build up a much greater infrastructure than TKMS for support and even major repairs in Canada, even to the extent of being able to build them here, should the need arise. Remember, that would be useful to SK also, because SK is a small country (in size) and if the balloon goes up in their nick of the woods, they may quickly need some place offshore to build their own or repair/maintain them. Canada's West Coast could be providential.

The Koreans haven't went as far as to offer to build the ships themselves domestically, primarily because the RCN has made it clear that it doesn't want full domestic production. The closest they have got to this is speaking about opening a facility to build/maintain the lithium batteries in Canada, which would be very valuable.

If Korea proposes their Batch 3 boat, as speculated, they won’t make the delivery schedule either

There is so little publicly available data about the tech specs and mission capabilities of the the two possible proposal boats it really is all about speculating at this time

I have not seen the Koreans pitching their hypothetical Batch 3 to Canada, everything has been squarely within the remit of the Batch 2 as far as I am aware.

 

[Underway]

KSS III advantages in this bid:
-speed of procurement/build
-currently they have more cooperation with domestic industry (that may change)
-LI battery technology
-larger submarine with longer range
-vertical launch capability

German advantages in this bid:
-NATO doctrine/training for our submariners will continue
-arguably the stealthiest submarine in the world
-smaller crew sizes
-smaller sub can hide in more places
-larger user group
-German AIP technology

 

[Czech_pivo]

KSS III advantages in this bid:
-speed of procurement/build
-currently they have more cooperation with domestic industry (that may change)
-LI battery technology
-larger submarine with longer range
-vertical launch capability

German advantages in this bid:
-NATO doctrine/training for our submariners will continue
-arguably the stealthiest submarine in the world
-smaller crew sizes
-smaller sub can hide in more places
-larger user group
-German AIP technology

Can the German sub leave Halifax, across the arctic (summer months) and make it to say Dutch Harbour or better yet, Esquimalt in one go?

 

[Rainbow1910]

KSS III advantages in this bid:
-speed of procurement/build
-currently they have more cooperation with domestic industry (that may change)
-LI battery technology
-larger submarine with longer range
-vertical launch capability

German advantages in this bid:
-NATO doctrine/training for our submariners will continue
-arguably the stealthiest submarine in the world
-smaller crew sizes
-smaller sub can hide in more places
-larger user group
-German AIP technology

The Koreans have put out the offer to bring Canadian sailors over to Korea to undertake training on their own submarines even before our boats are delivered, alongside setting up training facilities domestically in Canada. Sticking with existing NATO compatible training with the Germans would definitely be better/easier, but it seems like the Koreans have an answer to the question.

KSS-III Batch 2 apparently has a standard crew requirement of 33 people, but can accommodate up to 50 if required. Figures I've found for Type 212CD range from between 27 and 30+, so the crew sizes seem like either a wash or require additional clarification.

Something else to take into consideration is the KSS-III's VLS are potentially not just for purely offensive weapon systems, but could be considered for unmanned payloads in the future with its expansive cell diameters.

 

[PHughes]

I really believe SK is the best way to go. I think we need to pivot away from Europe.

What’s your sales pitch for a boat with a design optimized for the Retaliation Strike Mission, that has an older generation AIP technology, is not optimized for stealth or cold water operations, has a VLS capability that is not required or even desired by the RCN, is built in yards with a relatively short history of building submarines with a resulting thin ILS book, that is an orphan design with no future planned upgrade path, that is not NATO compliant and that is built in a nation that has a questionable level of political stability ?