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Reserve Call Outs/Employment Full Time

Service contracts for the reserves is not realistic. To require a member to parade a certain % of the time would cause problems without legislation to protect their jobs. Shift workers can miss up to 1/2 the training weeknights. Worker working until midnight on Fri. misses bus for training weekend. Offers to drive upon their own (not acceptable). The two listed examples have both happened to myself. I was once even told to take time off from my full-time job to parade on Thurs. evenings. Time off of a full-time job = NO JOB. Flexibility in the reserves is a must. Having been both regular & reserve I have seen that the reg. force attitude of expecting 100 % turnout doesn't work in the reserve. The idea of withholding a % of the pay (as suggested by another member) to be used as a bonus for attendance would only serve to cut the pay of some of your older more experienced members & increase their release rates. I don't believe legislation will happen so flexibility on both the units & members parts is a must.

The reserves are comprized of more than students and Mon.- Fri. , 9-5 workers.
 
Another incentive for hanging around could be a "tax free" designation for class A pay.  Most students get their tax refunded anyway, and  for us older guys, it might encourage some to show up a little more often.  If nothing else it would be a cheap "thanks for coming out".

The issue of pers not showing up is a problem.  I love the excuse, "Sorry warrant I can't make it on the weekend.  I have to work my part time job on Saturday." Um and the reserves would be....?
 
X Royal.  We are faced with the same problem here in Windsor.  Lot's of shift work.  The unit has done a few things to make it easier.  We often have a late bus on Friday nights for those working afternoons.  Also we are finding that a lot of work can be done during the day if some guys can make it in before they go to their civvie job, or if their day off is during the week.
 
Spanky said:
The issue of pers not showing up is a problem.  I love the excuse, "Sorry warrant I can't make it on the weekend.  I have to work my part time job on Saturday." Um and the reserves would be....?

I to have heard that excuse in the past but could not give a good answer to the comment " But Sgt. I've been in for over 4 months and still not received any pay". If our young soldiers can not count on correct & on time pay can we really expect full commitment. Chances are they choose the part time job because they get paid when the should.

Spanky: It sounds like your unit is showing some flexibility.
 
"Also, isn't the current educational reimbursement package contingent on the soldier attending a required amount of training events during a given year?"

Actually, they only have to not be NES, that is, not miss 5 consecutive parades, so there is alot of opportunity for someone to milk this one - and it does happen.
 
Service contracts or bonuses or whatever carrot are all symptoms of the same old Government BS - they do not fund DND adequately and get it involved in too many activities that arn not really soldier skills orionted.

How to encourage more turnout?

Publish goals on attendance and actual tunrout in the press. Talk it up in the media. If reserves aren`t parading maybe the trg is too much too quick or crappy - I suspect some of both - I respect the regular standards but one size may not fit all in the long leadup to a mobilisation which may never happen as it did in WW1 and WW2. Our current methods of manning for tours seem to be more like Korea.

Equalise Pay NOW - not all would parade 100% so you would not get a full spend on the extra 15%. But it is something DND could say - we pay equal - like we do in the rest of the Cdn fed Service and we warmly encourgae Cdns to get involved. This would be an investment in Goodwill that may pay off far out of proportion to its cost.

Consider short tours to help reg force family harmony..... replace them with reserves who have doen a work up program and are on standbye......... SPREAD the WEALTH do we really need 180 day tours or is this another one size fits all policy. When I was with FMC tasking in the 1980s MANY reg force showed up for a 90 day tour and medal.......... ergo everyone gets a tour on Greenline and many more know what a deployment looks like...... I suspect this has been discontinued due to idea it takes more reinft flights. Spreading the wealth may allow more of the reserves brainpower - Sgts and UP to go over to see an actual operational area rather than concentrate the tourista expeirence at the lower levels.

Just a few ideas - you can't train an army without a few real carrots - sticks only work for the full time force. The bad actors will never get ahead anyways

 
Where the Educational Reimbursement is involved, I have always believed that there should   be a fixed "pay back" arrangement of so many mandatory training or ops days, with the individual required to pay back a percentage (or all...) of the difference. The current system of just insisting that the soldier not go NES is really pretty weak-it allows the individual to parade only once a month, which unless the unit is parading on weekends, is way below the standard expectation for a Res soldier. I don't think we are really protecting the investment that the public is making in offering a potentially excellent program that benefits the country, the Army and the individual.

As for a contract: I certainly understand the impulse, but I'm not sure we have the administrative horsepower to enforce it. The process of clearing a person off NES and getting them out of the Res is very labour-intensive: I know that in our Bde it consumes large amounts of admin effort that should be spent on those soldiers who are in and doing what the Army asks of them. Despite the effort, we still struggle with an NES rate that is too high in some of our units. If we could fire people out of the military as fast as civvy corporations seem to be able to, I could certainly see supporting a required attendance contract.

I am more of a proponent of the incentive program, both in the TA style "bounty", and in making a Res soldier employee an asset to a civil employer, not a liability. If a bounty "disadvantages" those who cannot attend as often..well, too bad. So does the Res pay system. If you attend more often you get more money. Those who can't (or won't...) attend training get less money, but generally speaking the people with restrictive "career" civvy jobs are normally already at a higher pay grade in the Res, having been in for a while, and are probably drawing more pay per training session anyway. In the end, what the Res needs is your time-if you can't give it, you can't expect to be treated exactly the same way as somebody who can. This is a problem, but it is a reality in any volunteer or part time organization with a training requirement: volunteer fire departments are a very good example of this. Lots of people join, thinking how cool it will be to scream around town in a fire truck, then they realize they can't (or won't...) make the weekly drill sessions, or turn out on the 2:00 AM calls, etc. and they go "NES".

On the civvy job front, IMHO it is way better to have employers who let their Res soldiers go willingly than to have employers who resent the imposition and seek a way to get rid of the burden. (This is Canada, not the US, and I know that even they have a few issues...) I know that willing cooperation works: I attended our Regional CFLC Employer Awards ceremony the other night, and saw a wide selection of different employers receive the awards. Adding a tax incentive, or allowing the employer to "top up" Res pay instead of paying full salary during absence on Res duty, or favouring supportive companies in Govt tendering by making Res support a bidding requirement, are all possible alternatives. In the end, we probably need job protection as a final stick but IMHO it should be reserved for real emergencies.

Cheers.
 
Talk it up in the media. If reserves aren`t parading maybe the trg is too much too quick or crappy - I suspect some of both  I respect the regular standards but one size may not fit all in the long leadup to a mobilisation which may never happen as it did in WW1 and WW2.

Lots of the training is already modularized for the reserve soldier and some that isn't is quickly becoming modularized.  As for a regular standard, some reserve courses don't included components found in a reg force course as it is now.  Plus some trades aren't as trained (through no fault of their own) as their Reg Force counterparts.  MP come to mind, but I'm sure a lot of the CSS trades have  huge deltas in actual training.


Equalise Pay NOW - not all would parade 100% so you would not get a full spend on the extra 15%. But it is something DND could say - we pay equal - like we do in the rest of the Cdn fed Service and we warmly encourgae Cdns to get involved. This would be an investment in Goodwill that may pay off far out of proportion to its cost
I'm sorry but that doesn't fly in my opinion.  I knew when I was a reservist why I was paid 15% less than my Regular Force counterparts and I accepted it.  The Reseve soldier has the flexibility to come and go as they please.  They can quit at anytime and have no obligation to attend training(although one could find himself on the NES list fast).  So in short they have control, that a Reg Force member doesn't have.

Consider short tours to help reg force family harmony..... replace them with reserves who have doen a work up program and are on standbye.......

Been there and it doesn't work for the combat arms.  I'm doubtful it even works for a CSS type but I have nothing but second hand knowledge to back me up.  I know they were doing it quite extensivly for the Camp Mirage personel back when it was under Op Apollo.   I agreee with the new direction from the CLS and the addition of 18 reserve soldiers per company as it'll start to get more experience back down to the reserve soldier at all levels as it was being done during the Yugo/Bosnia timeframe.  That is a much better way to build on the relationship between Reg Force and Reserve, rather than dumping a new reservist into a spot every 2-3 months.



I like the idea of a bonus for attendance, but only throwing money at the problem doesn't solve the underlying issues, that others have brought up here.  The biggest is no legislation for job protection and no incentive for an employer to allow his Reserve soldier the time off.  They have the CFLC but I've noticed it's only the companies or organizations with lots of employees that really let their members have the time off they need.
 
They have the CFLC but I've noticed it's only the companies or organizations with lots of employees that really let their members have the time off they need

And IMHO this is a real problem, even in the US. Small employers must follow the law in the US, but it can be hard for them. Picture the small machine shop, with only one welder. They bid on a contract, and he disappears on Res duty. They lose the contract, and maybe have to lay off or go out of business. In Staff School back in the 1980's I did a paper on Job Protection vs Incentives: on researching the situation in the US, I found that the greatest single reason for separation from a Res unit was "employer pressure". The worst offenders were IIRC small police and fire depts-they were mandated to have so many people on duty and had limited flexibility to adjust their platoon schedules. I don't know if it's still the same but USARNG or USAR folks I spoke to in Afgh mentioned similar issues.

Cheers.
 
While job protection is nice, it's been my own experience that the worst offenders aren't the full time employed, as most of them are doing it primarily for the enjoyment, looking at the money as a bonus, but the students, doing it for no reason other then to pay for school (Not to paint all students with the same brush, as personally, I'm a student, and the only time I've ever missed a unit ex or garrison work has been because I was on a different ex, only really referring to the "jobbers").

Perhaps the best bet is the opposite of a bonus, perhaps say if you're not going to be able to come into the ex, don't bother showing up for the prep weekend or for the parade night before ex? Starve them for money... if you don't show up regularly, don't show up at all.
 
MJP said:
I'm sorry but that doesn't fly in my opinion.  I knew when I was a reservist why I was paid 15% less than my Regular Force counterparts and I accepted it.  The Reseve soldier has the flexibility to come and go as they please.  They can quit at anytime and have no obligation to attend training(although one could find himself on the NES list fast).  So in short they have control, that a Reg Force member doesn't have.

Hoo boy! What about pers who are reg force trained  and serving with the reserves? Big hole in your logic -- My opinion is

The Army has no basis, which I am currently testing via a redress which is now beyond the CDS, to pay anything other than 100% like the Brits and UK do.

This is based on no current CF regulations accepts anything less than 100% compliance. So we are clearly left with an artificial training barrier that can never be breached. If we keep this glass ceiling - lets go back to restrictions on only non Anglo Saxon background pers in DND. You think the minister wants that? He probably wants more equal - equal.

The difference is sign up for long term and get long term opportunities - pay is a short term item for regs and reserves.

If we follow the logic of "I accepted 15% less in the reserves" - then lets restrict all pers not serving on contracts of less than 20 years to 15%less ----seems as reasonable as the other one.

So we`ll see and probably sooner rather than later.



 
54/102 CEF said:
Hoo boy! What about pers who are reg force trained and serving with the reserves? Big hole in your logic -- My opinion is

My logic has nothing to do with training.   It's about choice really.   A Reg Force member has no choice if they want to go to work or not.   They have to go because they are paid a salary to show up and the negative reinforcer's for not showing up ensure that he does show up.   A Class A reserve soldier doesn't have that hanging over his head, he chooses when he will show up and do the soldier thing.


The Army has no basis, which I am currently testing via a redress which is now beyond the CDS,.

BOO HOO you made the choice to quit or retire (I can't tell which from your blank profile...) from the CF and the uncertainty and you joined the Reserve force and the stability that comes from being a reserve only soldier.   The price of that stability is 15% pay cut regardless of training.    

If we follow the logic of "I accepted 15% less in the reserves" - then lets restrict all pers not serving on contracts of less than 20 years to 15%less ----seems as reasonable as the other one.

Hardly they still operate in an uncertain environment as a Regular member and really don't have the choices a reservist has when it come to their job.




But we are really delving off topic here go to PM or start a new topic. 
 
MJP said:
I'm sorry but that doesn't fly in my opinion.  I knew when I was a reservist why I was paid 15% less than my Regular Force counterparts and I accepted it.  The Reseve soldier has the flexibility to come and go as they please.  They can quit at anytime and have no obligation to attend training(although one could find himself on the NES list fast).  So in short they have control, that a Reg Force member doesn't have.

If you gladly accepted the 15 per cent less salary as a reservist, then good for you.  Personally, I don't know anyone in the reserves today who would want to continue to be paid 15 per cent less than the reg force.  I have often asked the question of why we were paid less and the answer was that reservists were not trained to the same level as a reg force soldier and that we were not held to the same level of accountability and responsibility.  Well, I begged to differ on that one as well.  In my last two years in the CF, I was the chief instructor for a prgram called ITMIS.  I was reserve as was the captain who I worked for.  We managed this system for the entire army both regular force and reserve.  We were held to the same level of accountability and responsibility as a regular force soldier since this was a national project.  In addition, our training actually exceeded our regular force counterparts in the air force, CFRETS and Navy.  We were class B-A soldiers and still paid 15 per cent less.

No one can make me believe that I was happy to accept that situation because I could come and go as I pleased.  On top of working full-time on base, I had to travel to my reserve unit and parade one night a week and every weekend ex or they would pull my contract.  I don't know any reg force soldier who would put up with that for very long (unless they are an RSS or something).  IF they won't equalize the pay, then they need to equalize it for class B service.

I like the idea of a bonus for attendance, but only throwing money at the problem doesn't solve the underlying issues, that others have brought up here.  The biggest is no legislation for job protection and no incentive for an employer to allow his Reserve soldier the time off.  They have the CFLC but I've noticed it's only the companies or organizations with lots of employees that really let their members have the time off they need.

In addition to no legislation to job protection is the leadership at local units.  Some of them have been there for 30 years and don't want to change the way things are done.  Also, a lack of dynamic training.  No one wants to show up for a parade night and sweep the floor all night because no bothered to get a training plan together.  I saw this for my entire 11 years in the CF.  The only time it didn't happen is when I was physically at the unit to make it happen.

PJ D-Dog
 
pbi said:
If we could fire people out of the military as fast as civvy corporations seem to be able to, I could certainly see supporting a required attendance contract.

PBI you seem to want the best of both worlds. Civilian corporations may be able to get rid of people faster but they are also losers quite often in wrongful dismissal lawsuits, pay out of court settlements or separation pay. Reinstatement with full back pay is not uncommon. Also for it being easier to fire people you also gain the problem of them telling you "to stick the job up your *ss" and leaving on the spot with little or no recourse to yourself. Having worked in both settings I can honestly say the grass always looks greener on the other side until you get all the facts.
 
PJ D-Dog said:
If you gladly accepted the 15 per cent less salary as a reservist, then good for you.   Personally, I don't know anyone in the reserves today who would want to continue to be paid 15 per cent less than the reg force.  


Sigh... I accepted it because I was able rationalize it...doesn't mean I liked it.   I heard the tired excuse that it was because I wasn't "as trained" as my Regular Force counterpart and rejected it personally.   I know many a reserve soldier that can fill the boots of a Regular force member.   To me personally it came down to choice and they fact I could choice to go to reserves or stay at home and eat chips.   You want 100% pay equity step up to the plate and sign on and get the uncertainty that comes with it.   After seeing the uncertainty that some of my soldiers and peers face in their day to day dealings with the military has left me with a jaded view on this particular subject.   Reservists aren't posted (unless by choice) away from their comfortable little zones.   They don't have to go on a last minute tasking to one of the training centers unless by choice...etc etc etc.   Now keep in mind I'm talking Class A here, Class B reserves is another ball game in some aspects but it still boils down to choice for me.   I think in your particular case you might have a point and they use to give domestic Class C contracts for things like that.   Why they discontinued it is beyond me....but I can where that sort of system can be abused.

In addition to no legislation to job protection is the leadership at local units.   Some of them have been there for 30 years and don't want to change the way things are done.   Also, a lack of dynamic training.   No one wants to show up for a parade night and sweep the floor all night because no bothered to get a training plan together.

No arguement from me on this one.

 
Devil dog is one of the brightest guys I know and his journey to join the USMC could be a movie of the week considering the obstacles he had to overcome. The sad part of this whole story is he had to leave Canada and join the USMC to actually feel like a full mbr of a team due to his ill treatment as a PRes. The saddest part is we lost an exceptional Sn NCO in the process.

This 15% for the price of stability idea is silly as it doesn't exist. My CO tells me my job is moved to Kingston, I go. My CO tells me I'm off to nastyland, I pack my bags and I go.

One Army, One team, or was everyone sleeping during that part of the CDS's briefing?

TM


 
MJP said:
My logic has nothing to do with training.   It's about choice really.  

BOO HOO you made the choice to quit or retire (I can't tell which from your blank profile...)

Reserve Capt with 25 years full time -

But we are really delving off topic here go to PM or start a new topic.  

Not a problem - our goals are the same
 
Thanks for the nice comments there turretmonster.  But aside from that, you are dead on the money.  When the CO says "get on that plane, drink heavily and kick but at that working group" he means it and as a reservist, we can't say no.

The point some people are missing is that even though some soldiers are reservists, it does not mean they are beyond the reach of the QR&Os.  If you disobey a direct order, it's still disobeying a direct order and are subject to punishment.  If that Class A soldier doesn't show up for an ex when he said he would and gives no valid excuses, the next time he comes in an signs that pay sheet, he's yours and can be charged.

The problem is that many units won't charge a wrong doer for fear of loosing that soldier.  If he was that much of problem, then he's not that much of a loss.  Everyone involved with the reserve needs to start thinking outside the box.  Many units do but many don't.

PJ D-Dog
 
never understood the attitude "Reservists aren't contractually obligated to work, so those that do because they have the drive to want to should be penalized 15%"

If you don't work, you don't get paid, we also don't have the perks that go with a contract, or stability of future work, I won't have the oppurtunity to work till I go on course this summer. We don't have access to subsidized housing, mess food, free gym access, etc

Also because there is no protection for reservests to keep their civy jobs, in order to attend PLQ I had to quit my full time civy job. I asked them for time off to attend the course which would also provide signifigant value to the company, they said no.

I tried to appeal to their morality to support persons in the military ( office based in San Fransisco) and was told bluntly the only reason National Gaurds are allowed to keep their jobs was because of the US government and to basicly FOD.

They don't care about tax breaks or appearances, just about squeezing that last drop of value out of me before they toss me aside. It wasn't always this way but we've been bought by a huge international corporation called Alcatel.

I served 6 months in bosnia under a Reg Force Captain and it was the most satisfying work I'd ever done in my life which is by I've turned in my resignation, and put in my application for a componet transfer.
 
OK

This whinning from a couple of you with bad attitudes is getting to me.  If you truly want to get that 15% you feel you aren't getting paid now, then you'll also have to start paying the same Rent, Rations, etc as the Regs when you go work on a Call Out.....  You can't have everything....the cake and eat it too.... You want the benefits, but don't want to pay the dues.  Grow up!
 
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