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Reserve Pension- Merged

dapaterson

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I have received an email from Pension Services with an attached document.  The title of the document is self-explanatory: "Top-Up Letter - Serving Mbr owe DND"

Apparently, under the revised calculation scheme, I owe 24.3% more on the Top-Up portion of my election than was previously calculated.  Of course, there is no supporting documentation provided, just "New Amount" "Old Amount" and "Balance Owing" amounts, without explanation or rationale.


Now for the funny part:  Today marks three years to the day since I submitted my paperwork.  Somehow, three years on, there is now a sense of urgency on their part - since I have four weeks to reply.

 

Fishbone Jones

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dapaterson said:
I have received an email from Pension Services with an attached document.  The title of the document is self-explanatory: "Top-Up Letter - Serving Mbr owe DND"

Apparently, under the revised calculation scheme, I owe 24.3% more on the Top-Up portion of my election that was previously calculated.  Of course, there is no supporting documentation provided, just "New Amount" "Old Amount" and "Balance Owing" amounts, without explanation or rationale.


Now for the funny part:  Today marks three years to the day since I submitted my paperwork.  Somehow, three years on, there is now a sense of urgency for on their part - since I have four weeks to reply.

Which is one reason why, after a couple of years of mulling it over, taking into account the $227,000.00 they wanted me to buy back (my original 13 years reg that they had payed me out at $13,000.00) the total disarray, and the unfairness, of the  whole fiasco. I decided, on Feb 25\10, they could fund this thing without my money to seed their pot.
 

Rifleman62

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My second query to the AG resulted in a polite refusal, and a suggestion that I hire a lawyer.

Class action anyone???  Know any pension lawyers?
 
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There is no way I'm reading through 63 pages of this thread, so forgive me if I am repeating something already discussed!

I thought I was among the last to get my election in on 15 Feb 10, but my unit was sending out applications until 28 Feb for some people.

Generally, I think this entire process could have been better organized and explained. Pension Services really should have provided more information directly to the unit orderly rooms so they could then pass the info to the interested individuals.
 

justmyalias

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I'm posting quickly before people go to sleep, hoping to get an answer.

I was always under the impression the deadline was fiscal year IE MR31.  Come to find out it's Feb 28 or MR1?  That's strange., why end it before the FY?

Is there any way to getting this done now, or am I CERTIFIABLY, IRREFUTABLY SOL?  If there isn't., then My pension starts from what date exactly?  I guess I can review my pays and see when the pension deductions started?  Is that a fixed date for everybody?  If there is...PLEASE tell me what to do, this can be my priority if need be, if I need to do something by tomorrow morning or whenever.

I knew about this for a very long time., each time I asked for help., I was told 'here's the website'.  Very overwhelmed with the whole calculator thing., very overwhelmed at not having someone lend a hand (Not very good with these things., finances., RRSPs., RESPs all that stuff :(...I do do my own taxes mind you lol), so each time I tried to tackle this every 3-4 months since last year, I got one step done and bombed.

I probably have 4-6yrs in full time B, some A's.

If there's anything I can do in the next day or so to get something going, I would certainly be appreciative of some direction.
 

Nfld Sapper

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Well considering the CIF date of the Reserve Pension was 1 Mar 07 why would you think the last day to elect would be after that?
 

dapaterson

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The deadline was set by regulation - the Reserve Force Pension Regulations, made under the authority of the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act.  Those Regulations dictate the limits - three years after the CIF for those eligible at that time, or one year after becoming eligible.  Unless those regulations are amended (it would be posted in the Canada Gazette were it to happen, and I suspect a CANFORGEN or two as well), your pension contributions began for pay received for 01 March 2007 and onwards.

Thus, in your case, your service up to and including 28 February 2007 would not be pensionable.  However, full-time service prior to that date, if continuous, would help qualify you for the full-time plan (you need 55 months full time out of 60 to roll over from the Reserve Pension Plan (part I.1) to the full-time pension plan (part I).  You would be able to top-up your full-time service from 01 March 2007 onwards (that is, make additional contributions on your part I.1 service to equal the contributions you would have been required to make under part I).

In short: The deadline was 28 Feb 2010; unless it ever gets amended, you are out of luck.  If it does get amended, take immediate action to get yourself enrolled.  Every delay increases the interest you must pay and may alter the rate you are required to contribute at, both increasing your cost for the same benefit.

 

kratz

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My understanding is the pension buyback and top up options are two different beasts.

The pension buyback for time served prior to 1 March 2007 is available for members applying under part 1 and under part I.1

The top up is only available for those members who qualify for part I.1 as dapaterson mentioned above.


All of my previous service part-time and full-time service from 1993 through CIF has been recognized.
 
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The Top-Up is an extra step within the Buy-back election for those member who qualify for it, that is, have worked a period of 55 months full time within a five year period. Essentially, this applies to those in permanent Class-B(A) and Class B positions.

In most cases, it doesn't make a huge difference in benefits nor does it significantly increase the cost of the buy-back.
 

dapaterson

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Tetragrammaton said:
The Top-Up is an extra step within the Buy-back election for those member who qualify for it, that is, have worked a period of 55 months full time within a five year period. Essentially, this applies to those in permanent Class-B(A) and Class B positions.

In most cases, it doesn't make a huge difference in benefits nor does it significantly increase the cost of the buy-back.

(1) In my case, the top-up was over 20% of my buyback, so I would disagree with you that it is not significant in cost; and

(2) The reduction in benefits due to not electing to top up can be material.  It is, however, not an easy calculation to make:

Annuity Calculation — Reserve Force Service

16.4 For the purposes of paragraph 15(1)(a) of the Act, in the case of a contributor who is or was a member of the reserve force,
(a) if the contributor’s pensionable service in a calendar year was service in the reserve force, and the contributor had no days of Canadian Forces service during that pensionable service, the amount of pay received by the contributor in respect of that service is deemed to be zero; and
(b) if the pensionable service of a contributor in a calendar year, other than pensionable service referred to in paragraph (a), includes a period during which the number of days of Canadian Forces service is less than the number of days of pensionable service, the amount of pay received by the contributor in respect of the pensionable service in that calendar year shall be calculated as follows:


A × B/(C + D)

where
A is the total amount of the pay received by the contributor for the portion of the calendar year that is pensionable service,
B is the number of days of pensionable service of the contributor in the portion of the calendar year that is pensionable service,
C is the number of days of Canadian Forces service of the contributor that are days of service in the reserve force in the portion of the calendar year that is pensionable service, calculated without reference to subsection 3(2), and
D is the number of days of regular force service in the calendar year that are days of pensionable service.

SOR/2007-33, s. 9.

16.5 If the pensionable service of a contributor in a calendar year includes a period that relates to earnings in respect of which a past earnings election has been made or is a period in respect of which the contributor has made an election under clauses 6(b)(ii)(G) and (H) of the Act, as adapted by subsection 12.2(2), the amount of pay received by the contributor in respect of that period, for the purpose of calculating the average annual pay referred to in paragraph 15(1)(a) of the Act, is the amount that would be calculated as the updated pensionable earnings of a participant under subsection 37(2) of the Reserve Force Pension Plan Regulations for the calendar year if
(a) the participant’s pensionable earnings for the calendar year was the contributor’s pay for that period; and
(b) the year that the participant most recently ceased to be a participant was the year in which the election is made, or 2007 if the contributor has remained a participant or a member of the regular force from March 1, 2007 to the day of the election.
SOR/2007-33, s. 9.

16.6 (1) In respect of a contributor who has been a member of the reserve force, the number of years of pensionable service referred to in subparagraph 15(1)(a)(i) or (b)(i), paragraph 15(2)(d) or subsection 25(1) of the Act shall be adjusted in accordance with subsection (2) in respect of any calendar year or portion of a calendar year of pensionable service that
(a) came to the contributor’s credit by reason of a election for reserve force service under clauses 6(b)(ii)(G) and (H) of the Act as adapted by subsection 12.2(2) of these Regulations if the contributor opted for a lesser amount under paragraphs 7(1)(g) and (h) of the Act as adapted by subsection 12.4(1) of these Regulations;
(b) came to the contributor’s credit under section 10.2, other than service described in paragraph (c), if the contributor did not make the top-up election or opted to pay a lesser amount on the date of the election;
(c) came to the contributor’s credit by reason of a past earnings election if the contributor
(i) opted at the time of making the election to pay a lesser amount,
(ii) failed to make the top-up election under paragraph 14.2(b) in respect of that service, or
(iii) made the top-up election but opted to pay a lesser amount under subsection 14.6(2);
(d) is service in the reserve force during which the member was considered to be a member of the regular force by virtue of section 8.1;
(e) came to the contributor’s credit by reason of a election for reserve force service under clauses 6(b)(ii)(G) and (H) of the Act, as adapted by subsection 12.2(2), if the contributor did not opt, at the time of the election, for a lesser amount;
(f) came to the contributor’s credit by reason of a past earnings election if the contributor chose to pay the full amount at the time of the election and in respect of which the contributor later made the top-up election under paragraph 14.2(b) and paid the full amount; and
(g) is referred to in paragraph 14.2(a) if the contributor made the top-up election and chose to pay the full amount.
(2) The adjustment shall be made by subtracting from the total number of years of pensionable service the total of the values determined by the following formula for each calendar year or portion of a calendar year of pensionable service:


A/365 × [1 - (B/A × C)]

where
A is the lesser of 365 and the number of days of pensionable service in the calendar year or portion of it;
B is the lesser of 365 and the number of days of Canadian Forces service completed by the contributor in the calendar year or portion of it;
C is
(a) in respect of pensionable service described in paragraph (1)(a), the ratio of the lesser amount to the full amount determined under subsection 12.4(2),
(b) in respect of pensionable service described in paragraph (1)(b), the value determined by the formula


(D + E)/(E + F)

where
D is
(i) where the top-up election was made, the value determined by the formula:


K × (L/M)

where:
K is the full amount that would have been calculated under paragraph 14.6(3)(a) in respect of a top-up election made on the first day on which that election could have been made,
L is the lesser amount for which the contributor opted under subsection 14.6(2), and
M is the full amount calculated under subsection 14.6(3),

(ii) otherwise, zero,
E is the total of the amounts determined to be the value of A in paragraph 14.6(3)(a) that would have been calculated in respect of a top-up election exercised on the first day on which the contributor would have been entitled to make the election, and
F is the full amount that would have been calculated under paragraph 14.6(3)(a) in respect of a top-up election made on the first day on which that election could have been made,

(c) in respect of pensionable service described in paragraph (1)(c), the value determined by the formula


G/H × (G + I)/(G + J)

where
G is, if the contributor opted for a lesser amount at the time of making the past earnings election, that amount, or otherwise the amount determined to be the value of H,
H is the full amount determined by the formula in subsection 15(2) of the Reserve Force Pension Plan Regulations,
I is
(i) where the top-up election was made and the contributor opted under subsection 14.6(2) for a lesser amount, the value determined by the formula


N × (O/P)

where
N is the full amount that would have been calculated under paragraph 14.6(3)(b) in respect of a top-up election made on the first day on which that election could have been made,
O is the lesser amount for which the contributor opted under subsection 14.6(2), and
P is the full amount calculated under subsection 14.6(3);

(ii) if the top-up election was not made, zero, or
(iii) otherwise, the amount calculated as the value of N in subparagraph (i), and
J is the full amount that would have been calculated under paragraph 14.6(3)(b) in respect of a top-up election made on the first day on which that election could have been made, and

(d) in respect of pensionable service described in paragraphs (1)(d) to (g), one.

SOR/2007-33, s. 9.

 

RLD

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Tetragrammaton said:
The Top-Up is an extra step within the Buy-back election for those member who qualify for it, that is, have worked a period of 55 months full time within a five year period. Essentially, this applies to those in permanent Class-B(A) and Class B positions.

In most cases, it doesn't make a huge difference in benefits nor does it significantly increase the cost of the buy-back.

I would be cautious about saying the Top Up doesn't significantly increase the cost or benefit.  It really has to be looked at on a case by case basis and especially the pattern of service.

In my case top up added about 10% to cost but increased the benefit by 17%. The extra benefit will pay off the extra cost in about 4 years (including interest) meaning I am $300+/mth to the good after that. However in my case my service is back end loaded (lots of class B/C the last 15 years), I will be retiring soon and the best five years will be my last 5.

For someone who is front end loaded (e.g. qualifies for part 1 between 1999 and 2004 say and then serves the next 20-30 years years as primarily class A with small amounts of class B) the picture is much less clear. The pension is based on the best 5 years earnings but this might be the 1999-2004 at Pte/Cpl (AB/LS) pay rates or perhaps later at a higher pay rate (WO/PO1) but based on part time service. In either case the cost/benefit equation is much harder to figure out and I'm not sure it wouldn't be a negative (i.e. paying more but getting less benefits on part 1 versus someone with a similar amount of service but who didn't qualify for part 1) given the different way of calculating benefits in the two plans. The examples given by pension servcies don't explore this.
 

justmyalias

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Thank you for the comments thus far.

If I understand this correctly.

Currently, I am SOL., for doing the buy-back.

I think I am also SOL for doing the TOP-UP if eligible, as I would only have been eligible to do the top-up if I already was eligible for the I.1?  Which I currently am not.  (or did I misunderstand what kratz said?), or did I not get that, and if I AM eligible (have 55+months service time) I can still do the transfer to Ref F Pension TOP-UP since I'm bypassing the buy-back course of action?

Juicy Side question.  Reg F mbrs (and probably now Reservists) who go on pata/mata for say 5months., when they come back they just double up their pension payments (for the equal period) and essentially the time (while on paid leave) is *with a fudge factor-pensionable (in principle)*. 

So if I as a Reservist have in those 55+months of continuous service., a period of months on pata/mata...do they count in my 55+ eligible months-or not? and am then actually counting (55+however many extra months I have) MINUS the months I was on mata/pata to end up with the correct total?
*tried to do a tab right for the side-question but couldn't find the button. Is there none on this foruM?
 
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Safe to say that the entire Buy Back process is complex enough that a better job should have been done by Pension services to educate the unit orderly rooms, so more specific information could have been provided to the members trying to make these important and long lasting decisions.
 

dapaterson

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justmyalias said:
Thank you for the comments thus far.

If I understand this correctly.

Currently, I am SOL., for doing the buy-back.

Correct.  The buyback election deadline was 28 Feb 2010.  Unless that is ever amended, that boat has sailed.

I think I am also SOL for doing the TOP-UP if eligible, as I would only have been eligible to do the top-up if I already was eligible for the I.1?  Which I currently am not.  (or did I misunderstand what kratz said?), or did I not get that, and if I AM eligible (have 55+months service time) I can still do the transfer to Ref F Pension TOP-UP since I'm bypassing the buy-back course of action?
*tried to do a tab right for the side-question but couldn't find the button. Is there none on this foruM?

Simple way to think about it:

Reserve Force Pension Plan = Part I.1 of the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act = Part-time reservists

Canadian Forces Pension Plan = Part I of the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act = Regular Force and Full-time reservists (55 or more months in a 60 month period).  Once you move from part I.1 to part I you are always in part I.


If you are eligible to Top-Up your contributions becasue you moved from part I.1 to part I, you would have received a letter indicating such.  You are only eligible to top-up if you have been moved from part I.1 (part-time plan) to part I (full-time plan) because you have 55 of 60 months on full-time service (B or C).

Your pay statement (now available online through EMAA) should indicate whether you are contributing to the RFPF - part-time plan (part I.1) or CFPF - full-time plan (part I).  If you are in part I (full-time plan) you have one year to top-up from the date of your entry into the plan (unless you entered part I in 2007-2009, in which case you had until 28 Feb 2010 or one year, whichever was longer).

If you are now in part I (full-time) and still have time left to elect to Top-Up, you can Top-Up on contributions made since 01 March 2007.
 

justmyalias

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Crap...sounds like I'm screwed. Bollox!

Do you think there's any point of at least ASKING if there's any options for us?  I can't be the only one lol.  It's not like I'm 2 years late., it's only 30days :-\

dapaterson said:
...Your pay statement (now available online through EMAA) should indicate whether you are contributing to the RFPF - part-time plan (part I.1) or CFPF - full-time plan (part I)....

I'll have a look tomorrow.  I actually did DL all my statements (just the other day) (anybody know why the format is REALLY strange.  For each statement, they are about 4-5 pages each., with blank (or nearly entirely blank-maybe one line of repeated info on them) pages interspersed.  I'll see what the deductions are reading as.

You're getting a little advanced for me so I lost you a bit.  You're saying even if I am paying into the full time plan now, I'd only be able to top-up 1yr back?  :crybaby:, dazednconfuzed
 

dapaterson

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The deadline is set in Regulations issued by the Governor-in-Council; that is the body that can change it; it's outside DND's control (though not influence).  You can ask, but be prepared for a negative answer.


On the Top-Up (only applicable if you pay into the CFPF): You can only top-up years where you have either paid for service or bought it back.  Since you did not buy back service, you can't top up the buyback.  You can only top-up service from the date you began making contributions to part I.1 - and you have only one year from entry into part I to elect to do so.
 

justmyalias

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It's making better sense to me now, and I'm concluded nothin's gonna happen.

Would be interesting to know how much my buy-back would've been out of sheer lack of being able to do anything else with it.  Anybody care to help?  I can send the info., or you can call me at work tomorrow and walk me through it.  God knows I stall each time I tried :(.

What's still confusing me is what happens for the determination of the 55months consecutive employment?  Can it start from before mar 2007 or it has to be 55months AFTER that date?  Since you're saying you cannot top-up prior...or heck...even 1yr beyond?

or can you be eligible in that period, but...?  That's what I'm floundering on still.
 

dapaterson

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The 55/60 threshold can be at any time since 1999 (I think).  Once you enter part I (full-time), you can top up all your contributions - both those you made through payroll deductions since  01 March 07, and those you bought back.

The one year is the time limit you have to choose to do so.

So, if you reached 55 of 60 months full time on 01 May 2010, you would have until 30 April 2011 to choose to top-up.  The top up amount would be based on your buyback of service prior to 01 March 2007, plus all contributions made since 01 March 2007.

Anyone enrolled on or after 01 March 2007 has it easy; there's no buy back for them ever, only a top up in 2012 if they reach 55 of 60 months.  It's the old(er) farts wh have more complex situations.
 

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justmyalias said:
Crap...sounds like I'm screwed. Bollox!
Do you think there's any point of at least ASKING if there's any options for us?  I can't be the only one lol.  It's not like I'm 2 years late., it's only 30days :-\
You may have one slim hope. Both CLS and CMS have send letters to ADM (FIN CS) and CMP recommending an extension to 1 Mar 2011 due to the many problems with the RFPP rollout. The Chief of Reserves and Cadets Council made a similar recommendation early last year. The fact the deadline has come and passed without any word of an extension is not good but given the fact that it would require TB/Gov in Council approval and a change to the RFPP regulations, all of which would take some time, perhaps the fact there hasn't been a definite NO answer, at least to my knowledge, is a positive sign.

I'm not saying it is going to happen but suggest you stay alert for any deadline changes and be ready to submit an election as the window may not be open too long even if an extension is granted.

Would be interesting to know how much my buy-back would've been out of sheer lack of being able to do anything else with it.  Anybody care to help?  I can send the info., or you can call me at work tomorrow and walk me through it.  God knows I stall each time I tried .
If you are looking for someone to do the leg work for you don't hold your breath. However if you get your info together and ask around for someone who has gone through the process to help navigate through the calculator and forms I would be surprised if you don't find some help.
 

justmyalias

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dapaterson said:
...  It's the old(er) farts wh have more complex situations.
Hey, I'd like to think I'm not old...Don't think that I can make the claim I'm not a *fart* though. :D

RLD said:
You may have one slim hope. Both CLS and CMS have send letters to ADM (FIN CS) and CMP recommending an extension to 1 Mar 2011 due to the many problems with the RFPP rollout. The Chief of Reserves and Cadets Council made a similar recommendation early last year. The fact the deadline has come and passed without any word of an extension is not good but given the fact that it would require TB/Gov in Council approval and a change to the RFPP regulations, all of which would take some time, perhaps the fact there hasn't been a definite NO answer, at least to my knowledge, is a positive sign.
Here's to hopin'!

If you are looking for someone to do the leg work for you don't hold your breath. However if you get your info together and ask around for someone who has gone through the process to help navigate through the calculator and forms I would be surprised if you don't find some help.
Well..I do appreciate the value in learning to do something myself., but it's this isolated learning process that's killer.  If I can get a nice step-by-step informative of how to do it, that would be awesome enought to get me chuggin' along.  This long-week-end is going to be great for me, so if I can get something (waiting on an answer from someone actually) before then, hopefully I can put in some solid crunch time over the four days, and come Tuesday have a semblance of a final answer.

I'm frankly a little uninterested in persuing all the ql2/TQs/dvr wheel/various week-end taskings/ days and amounts of pay, I mean honestly., how much could all that amount to?  6-10months?

I'm mainly interested in the solid class B I've put in which is the 5-7yrs worth., should be easy yes?  Maybe 5-8Class B's.  C'est tout.  Can you ignore certain employment and focus on others for such (possibly incorrect) calculations or are you required to account for EACH and every paid day?  If you ignore them, it's only you who's missing right?  as your Pensionable time would be less than potentially?
 
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