Respect our values or Leave

[gcclarke]

No guard deserves to live in those conditions.

 

[Jungle]

No guard deserves to live in those conditions.

We have people living in the NWT, in Nunavut and in the Yukon; why is it that people could not work/live on Baffin Island ? There are people living and working in Iqaluit (Frobisher Bay) they seem to be doing fine...

So, what's your point ?

 

[GAP]

Then let's build a huge compound on Baffin Island, a kind of "Guantananorth", where we could send all the riff-raff...

We already did that on a Provincial basis...... About 20+ years ago the Bands and Indian Affairs took all the malcontents/troublemakers/etc and banished them from their original reserves and put them out in the middle of nowhere call "Shamattawa".

 

[Jungle]

The History of Shamattawa First Nation

When the York Fadtory Hudson's Bay operation was closed in the 1950's, Shamattawa was estblished as a permanent settlement. Shamattawa operated as an outpost to York Factory as early as 1915 and in 1934 it became a full post. 

http://www.kitayan.ca/website/pages/shammatawa.html

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

I would be interested in seeing any data that suggests that, either:

1. Immigrants from Europe were in any meaningful way "well educated;" or

2. Non-European immigrants who came in the '50s and '60s from, say, the Caribbean, were "well educated;" or

3. 21st century Immigrants from Asia are less well educated.

Our greatest single immigration 'project' (late 19th/early 20th century was aimed,squarely, at Eastern European peasants - strong backs and durability were what "we" were after when my grandmother came here with her family. She helper her 2nd Scots husband bust the prairie sod and she raised eight children in the process. She never learned to read much - wasn't required, either.

We do have educational points, now, for immigrants - something we never applied in the '40s and '50s and '60s to waves of European or West Indian immigrants. In fairness to your point every immigrant with an education is, quickly, entitled to bring in Mom and Dad and Grandma too - and they do. But I have never seen any evidence that immigrants in the early 21st century are not, in every respect, more productive than those of the early 20th century.

I think you are referring to refugees - which is a whole different matter.

I was referring to my experience which stretches back to the 1960s/1970s in Alberta when there were few visible minorities and most of those were to be seen in the education system or professions.  Most visible immigrant minorities I see today are in the service sector and mostly Asian.  They may all have PhDs from Timmy U or 7 Eleven U but I suspect not.

My immigrant grandfather finished grade 8 in Russia about 120 years ago which was well educated at the time and he spoke 3 languages quite fluently.  I don't think he was all that unusual.

As far as visible minorities go, my father went to a largely black school in rural Alberta and I went to school with some of their children.  We were all farmers and the blacks were no richer or poorer than anyone else and although I'm sure they could testify to incidents of racism they were totally integrated into the community.

When the government sets out to create economically underprivileged pockets of  visible minority immigrants it is asking for social problems.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Well, perhaps it’s a question of where you are. The visible minority people I see “in the service sector” are black or of apparently Middle Eastern origin. I am told, but cannot prove, that the owners of many of the service industry businesses are Asians. (But someone told me that almost all take away pizza stores in Ottawa are owned by Middle Eastern immigrants for their families.)

The Asians I know do, by and large, have MAs, MSCs, MSEEs or PhDs.

Here is some data, extracted from a 26 May 07 Montreal Gazette article that synopsized a lot of (then) recent StatsCan data (for which I am too lazy to search):

• 23% of Canadians are foreign born;

• 49% of PhD holders are immigrants;

• 40% of those with a masters degree were born outside Canada; and

• 38% of male workers with a post-graduate degree are immigrants to the country.

If you’ll forgive me, I’ll go with the data and we can each have our own, unverifiable, perceptions.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Here is some data, extracted from a 26 May 07 Montreal Gazette article that synopsized a lot of (then) recent StatsCan data (for which I am too lazy to search):

• 23% of Canadians are foreign born;

• 49% of PhD holders are immigrants;

• 40% of those with a masters degree were born outside Canada; and

• 38% of male workers with a post-graduate degree are immigrants to the country.

If you’ll forgive me, I’ll go with the data and we can each have our own, unverifiable, perceptions.

I looked at the data with the intent of skewing it as necessary but came to the conclusion that even with over-representation less than 10% of immigrants have post-graduate education.  That still leaves 5 1/2 million without.

If you're right and there is no underprivelieged immigrant subculture good for us.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I looked at the data with the intent of skewing it as necessary but came to the conclusion that even with over-representation less than 10% of immigrants have post-graduate education.  That still leaves 5 1/2 million without.

If you're right and there is no underprivelieged immigrant subculture good for us.

I never suggested that immigrants are not underprivileged. The data suggests that an Asian immigrant with a PhD will earn less than a native born Canadian with a BA.

This data is old, a 2007 'Daily' based on the 2001 census, but it shows the problem: we are importing rather than growing PhDs.

My observations and those of others, reported elsewhere indicate that "we" are counting on immigrants and their children to provide us with our national brain powers. Presumably the sons and daughters of of traditional white, Anglo/Franco, long term settlers will drive our trucks, cut our hair and sell us our shoes.

We have several requirements:

=> We confuse refugees with immigrants. They are not even remotely alike. We need different policies and programmes, administered by different people, for each;

=> We need a focused immigration policy that meets our long term national 'needs.' For me that means more immigrants but from fewer parts of the world; and

=> We need to reform ourselves - we need to actually raise our children, we need to help them to "be the best they can be." That means that 75% of PhDs ought to be earned by native born Canadians. The traditional, white, Anglo/Franco, 'settler' population is second rate and falling. It, we, are failing our country. We are asking the Chinese to rescue it for us.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

we are importing rather than growing PhDs.

I often wonder what foreign students think after spending a fortune to get a Canadian education and end up at what looks like homecoming week back home.

I think there is a major failure in Canada by not teaching sufficient medical professionals, professors, etc.  These are simply opportunities denied our children, many of whom are children of immigrants.

The population problem could be simply solved by convincing Canadian women to have 2.2 kids each.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Pardon my lack of understanding, but what is the big deal with PhD's?  IMO, down at street level, we don't need more overthinkers.  We need people who have solid values and are willing to do what it takes to put our country first.  Intellectual discourse is just that; gabbing and not doing.
Sorry, when I hear PhD I think "university" and I don't see much coming out of our "higher learning institutions" that would suggest that they are working towards that means.  Quite the contrary actually. 

 

[gcclarke]

Pardon my lack of understanding, but what is the big deal with PhD's?  IMO, down at street level, we don't need more overthinkers.  We need people who have solid values and are willing to do what it takes to put our country first.  Intellectual discourse is just that; gabbing and not doing.
Sorry, when I hear PhD I think "university" and I don't see much coming out of our "higher learning institutions" that would suggest that they are working towards that means.  Quite the contrary actually.

Technical innovations are driven by research, much of which is conducted in Universities by people with Masters degrees and PhDs. To suggest that nothing of more use than "gabbing" comes out of intellectual discourse is frankly foolish. This is the type of anti-intellectualism that is threatening our (the collective "our", including the UK, the US) technological and economic superiority. Should it continue, well, let's just hope our grandchildren can speak Mandarin.

Yes, "ideas" are useless without someone to implement them, but simply having someone to implement things is useless without ideas. We need both sides of the coin for the human race to prosper.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Pardon my lack of understanding, but what is the big deal with PhD's?  IMO, down at street level, we don't need more overthinkers.  We need people who have solid values and are willing to do what it takes to put our country first.  Intellectual discourse is just that; gabbing and not doing.
Sorry, when I hear PhD I think "university" and I don't see much coming out of our "higher learning institutions" that would suggest that they are working towards that means.  Quite the contrary actually.

Read that "Daily" I cited above. It begins by saying: "The supply of PhDs plays an increasingly important role in determining Canada's ability to compete in the emerging global knowledge economy."

I know I go on and on and on about productivity and I know that almost no one cares. But, sadly, productivity matters and it does not much involve the street level.

I also go on and on say that poor productivity does not mean we have stupid or lazy workers at street level. It means the "street level" workers are not working smart (enough) because business and labour leadership do not organize and manage well enough or do not give the "street level" workers the right tools. The "best' organization and management techniques and the "tools" needed to help workers be more productive (more productive = more and better output per hour worked with less worker effort applied) are the business of people with PhDs.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I often wonder what foreign students think after spending a fortune to get a Canadian education and end up at what looks like homecoming week back home.

Many are dismayed.

I think there is a major failure in Canada by not teaching sufficient medical professionals, professors, etc.  These are simply opportunities denied our children, many of whom are children of immigrants.

To accomplish that we have to have two things:

1. Enough spaces - which means we need more and more people with MDs and PhDs to do the teaching; and

2. Enough students - which means that native Canadian students have to work a whole helluva lot harder in elementary and secondary school which means that native Canadian parents have to get off their fat asses and raise their kids instead of warehousing them.

The population problem could be simply solved by convincing Canadian women to have 2.2 kids each.

It could be partially solved by achieving the replacement rate but our population should grow beyond simple replacement level and it should must be improved by immigration.

 

[chanman]

1. Enough spaces - which means we need more and more people with MDs and PhDs to do the teaching; and

To illustrate the point...

My brother is on track to apply to the School of Optometry at the University of Waterloo. It is also the only optometry school in English Canada (there is one francophone school in Montreal). The Waterloo School of Optometry website proudly proclaims that it has 2262 alumni since opening in 1967. That works out to an average of under 55 per year. They mention there are roughy 3000 practicing optometrists in Canada. That gives roughly 1 optometrist for every 10,000 Canadians. They accept 90 students per year, up from about 60 students when the the program was established. Practicing optometrists that my brother has spoken to confirm that class size has not dramatically changed in the last two decades.

 

[Antoine]

I can think of many people that have kept our country competitive and relatively wealthy without holding a PhD. My :2c: is that business is a lot about gut feeling, common sense, skills in making informed judgements, good synthesis and creativity. The technical knowledge can always be bought from a university or college graduate or outsourced for cheap oversea (but I don't like it).

After a good undergrad in commerce or economics (even science or engineering for friends I think about that bought biotech company) followed by exposure to the real world and then (if not enough) back to school for an MBA, that should be more than enough to be successful. Knowledge coming from academic literature is available to everyone and can be applied wisely and fine tune to the real world. Lets look at the past economic crash and see how many "smart PhD" have been involved in it, might be surprising.

Here, let me give you an hypothetical (naive) example about a smart tradesman without university degree but a lot of common sense and general culture:
Mr. Carpenter realizes that exporting our natural ressources is a nonsense and way more money and jobs can be made with transformation, added value and so on. Then he decides to target a market of wood furnishing in Asia or create a demand over there (OK, needs to hire people in advertising, marketing, in the know of Asia....). He starts a shop and having good skills with an open mind, he is able to satisfy the customer taste making a break through in Asia. Then he understands that by using wood from Canada and by transforming it, he could get subventions (or lobbying for it) from federal and provincial government to make his company bigger and so on....

Back to the present thread, I don't want to start again the debate about multiculturalism, but if every subculture lives in its own world, then each have its own set of values and might tell you: Respect our values or Leave when you are passing by their area. Thus, I still think that school from kindergarden to university is a good place to implement the values we would like to transmit to the next generation. That is if we can agree once for all what are those values, official languages and stick to it without making exception to accommodate one minority group and then another one.

I realize that it is a complex issue and I am not a scholar in humanities neither much involved in social work, so herein you'll find my  :2c:.

Regards,

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Pretty much all the millionaires I know lack any education beyond high school, if even that.  Raw business skills are hard to teach while the technical areas are easier.  An example might be a trucker with one truck who ends up with 20.  While he requires little more than experience, the trucks he drives and the roads he drives on are designed by well educated technicians.  While business is driven by people with a mix of education, the technicians develop the know-how to do it better than anyone else.  While a very good business profit might be 5 % of sales, developing technology to save 5% of costs could lead to doubled profits.  As every company in the world is developing technology simultaneously, it is usually a matter of adapt or die.

 

[a_majoor]

While there are lots of smart and successful people without higher education, the real point of having higher education (or hiring people with those qualifications and skillsets) is that is where the game changers are.

Consider transportation about two centuries ago. A mule driver could become quite successful and own several teams and wagons, but be put out of business when the railroad arrived. The railroad requires many different skill sets, from engineering, metallurgy, telegraphs, construction engineering etc. which would be difficult for uneducated people to develop (but which bright people can see applications for after they are invented).

Our truck driving friend today might live to see the transportation industry radically altered by the widespread introduction of "3D printers", allowing people at home to make most common household items on the spot. This will also alter retail, manufacturing, banking and many, many other industries and institutions.

For Canada, the real issue here is where are these game changers going to come from; RIM in Waterloo or from across the Pacific Rim? 

 

[Brad Sallows]

>The "best' organization and management techniques and the "tools" needed to help workers be more productive ... are the business of people with PhDs.

Apologies in advance if I give offence, but that has to be the most amusing statement of the thread.  Lately there has been some discussion among the professional chatterers as to the notion of "anti-intellectualism" and "anti-elitism"; but I conclude they have misdiagnosed prudent skepticism of the basic competence of people in high places who aren't as smart as they think they are.  It is not that I am "anti-intellectual"; it is just that I can see when a person's intellect and education are outmatched by his ambition and self-regard.  The failing is common among politicians and advocates of centralized control.

Very few of the people I meet who hold PhDs hold one in a field relative to whatever it is they do to perpetuate their existence.  Many hold one in a field of very limited practical application.  Also, high intellect and advanced education are not correlated with basic common sense (eg. the ability to do something simply and efficiently, like put up an umbrella or move a piece of furniture).  Finally, the theories and ideas which emanate particularly from the social / educational world of high achievement often bear no use whatsoever in the "real world" and are, almost as often, counterproductive.  I suppose the same might be true of "business theorists", if such a creature exists.  The grounds of business and economics are not thickly covered by people who know what they are doing.

Process improvements are usually incremental.  And - this is just an instinctive guess - I suppose they come more often from the factory floor (or the floor's supervisors) than from anyone in the upper tiers of management, let alone the academic set.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The real point of having higher non-specialized education is to drive up the starting point for salary negotiations, or to pad the resume and fill time waiting for repeated applications to low-acceptance specialty schools (eg. medicine, law) to bear fruit.  A master's or PhD is an expression of self-discipline and effort - ability and potential, not experience and judgement.

People in the former category (salary boost) are good at creating niches for themselves which meet their expectations.  It is harder in the private sector, but the evidence is clear every time a bunch of people in the middle layers are released from employment without any crippling effect on the business.  The public sector is of course the ideal environment: layers of people making "business cases" to hire more people like themselves, without a price signal in sight to indicate how much their time is really worth.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I have met some academics that are very good at what they do and are as dumb as stumps outside their field. We had one in the arctic we called him “professor zero” he had forgotten to pack most of his experiments onto the ship in Victoria and then was mad at us when he arrived in the arctic to start his research only to find he didn’t have all his equipment. Had another one from UBC, doing water quality tests that wanted me to drift with the tide but stay in the same place…..sigh.