Retain the Monarchy in Canada?

[AmmoTech90]

Donaill,

I don't think you quite grasp what devolution in Scotland is.  Devoluition resulted in a Scottish Parliment where the Members of the Scottish Parliment (MSPs) swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen (same queen as England and Canada has).  MSPs may pass legislation on domestic issues (internal to Scotland).  If anything devolution is leading to more of a federal system than republican.

 

[Donaill]

Hi AmmoTech. Sorry. I guess I should have added more to my statement. I do understand what Devolution means to Scotland and even to Wales(if they vote for it, which could very well happen.)
Without going too deep into the history of the Celtic nations within the U.K. I will make a few statements. You may know much of this already anyways.
Groups such as Plaid Cymru and SNP have been supporters of independancy for decades. Much of this due to teh flow of money out compared to the lack of money into these countries. There are other reasons as well but this is not the website for a history lesson. My point about devolution in Scotland is that many see it as the first step in achieving independance.

 

[Shec]

Hipocrates oath, which is taken by all medical doctors, binds them to "do no harm".  The same holds for the Monarchy.  It does this country no harm, it does not interfere with our law and policy-making,  its costs little, and it is part of Canada's history and identity, an identity that we always seem to challenge - perhaps because we have nothing else to worry about compared to other countries.  It is from the Crown that we have embraced the fundamental values of peace,order, and good government.  Symbolically the Crown has offered protection and opportunity to generations of immigrants from all backgrounds  and presumably will continue to do so.  In that regard the Crown is a tie that binds us all, something that is needed to counter any threats of balkanization as society becomes increasingly diverse.  So what is the practical purpose of discarding it? 

 

[AmmoTech90]

The SNP may have seen it as the first step to independance but the SNP are not a majority.  Two interesting statistics from around 1997.

Prior to devolution more residents of Scotland considered themselves both Scottish and British than just Scottish.

After devolution support for the SNP dropped.  This tells me people supported them because they were the only party that advocated even any sort of independance and when your the only show in town you'll get business.  I know a lot of scots who supported the SNP but didn't really want full blown separation but it was the only way to get a message across.  A cynic could say that the support for the SNP dropped because the trecherous English gave us just enough bread and circus' to make us happy (and the Holyrood parliment building is a bit of a circus).

 

[Donaill]

 Hi Shec. I also agree with what you say... Shocking isn't it. It doesnt cost us much money, I would say no more than when Bush comes to visit. For me Canada is more than some (a few) former colony(ies). Canada is social medicine. Canada is Vimy Ridge and Cyprus. Canada is having  Pakistani and Muslim neighbours that don't want to kill each other. Canada is some skinny Canadian of Irish ancestory going to a Chinese New Year.

 Canada is a few pilots(and ground crews) sitting in old Sea King heli's and still keeping them in the air.

Canada ROCKS.

 

[Steel Badger]

Why change it if it aint broke....


removing the monarchy would only leave room for all those loonies and kooks who revel in dreaming up pointless changes to our customs and traditions and call it Canadianising...
Just look at the tomfoolery surrounding Integration....
Further...the yanks decided to go republican in 1778 and look at em.......they are so desperate for royalty they treat POLITICIANS and actors as nobility...

King Jean Chretien??? Shudder

And speaking as a member of a Scots / Irish / Norse family who were kicked out of the Highlands by the Campbells and their english masters following the 45......WHO CARES? My family has served the Crown since before the 45, stayed home during the rising and burned Campbell Farms and houses, and thence to Canada....

Seriously though, The Monarchy does serve, I believe, an important function.
As to the spending of $, our GOvts would spend our tax dollars just as poorly AFTER becoming a republic.....
Hmmm there's a thought....."STOP GOVERNMENT WASTE, SAVE THE MONARCHY"

It makes us unique

 

[Kirkhill]

Shec

The last act of an independent Scots parliament was "The Darien Colony" which busted the treasury in the 1690s and lead the way to the end of the Scots Parliament and the Union of the Flags.

The first act of the new Scots parliament was Holyrood, a monstrosity which leaks and is well over budget and set to bust the treasury.

Given the reputation our countrymen have developed for parsimony and skill in managing others money (That Scot Gordon Brown's doing much better with England's money than any of the Scots are doing with theirs) the track record is confusing to say the least but doesn't give much confidence.

Scots generally are happy enough to have an open road to London.

It'll be interesting to see how long the multi-party parliament takes to organize itself into one or two viable parties rather than the stramash of radicals it is just now. 

What most folks have to remember that it was a Scot that took over the English monarchy, not the other way about.

 

[mo-litia]

No.  I don't think we should retain the monarchy in Canada; it's not relevant to Canadain society.

And while we're at it, let's gid rid of hockey, Tim Hortons, maple syrup, touques, the CBC, etc. . .

Now that I think of it, we've already pretty much lost hockey and perhaps getting rid of the CBC wouldn't be so bad!  :dontpanic:

 

[Canuck_25]

Welll, lets not forget Canada is a Constitutional Monarchy, same with Britain. Our legal system (criminal code, charter of rights and Freedoms, Courts) has something mentioning the queen. Many veterans, who fought for this country, desire to retain our British roots. Look at the upheaval over the Flag debate in the 60's. Veterans still resent the goverment for the changes.

At the currrent moment, 33% of Canadians are of British heritage, 33% french, and 33% multicultural. The main point is, Canada is changing fast.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

At the currrent moment, 33% of Canadians are of British heritage, 33% french, and 33% multicultural. The main point is, Canada is changing fast.

Source?

I am a full-bred Ukrainian Canadian (3 of 4 grandparents were born in Canada, but all my greats came from Ukraine).  Nothing "multi" cultural about me.

33% sounds extremly high as far as "British" heritage goes.  I wouldn't try to hard to make your point if I were you.

My grandmother considers HM Queen Elizabeth II a "parasite".  I think she makes a pretty good Colonel in Chief, but your beating the drum for British "traditions" is getting rather olllllllllllddddddddddddd...................

 

[Spr.Earl]

Source?

I am a full-bred Ukrainian Canadian (3 of 4 grandparents were born in Canada, but all my greats came from Ukraine).   Nothing "multi" cultural about me.

33% sounds extremly high as far as "British" heritage goes.   I wouldn't try to hard to make your point if I were you.

My grandmother considers HM Queen Elizabeth II a "parasite".   I think she makes a pretty good Colonel in Chief, but your beating the drum for British "traditions" is getting rather olllllllllllddddddddddddd...................

So I repeat "Erase our History"?
In the Ukrain they are riviving thier History which was erased under the Russians.

 

[Michael OLeary]

So I repeat "Erase our History"?
In the Ukrain they are riviving thier History which was erased under the Russians.

I rather doubt that the point being made was to "Erase our History". History and tradition have their own worth when they continue to support current activities and organizations. Claiming that the connection to the Crown remains principally dependent upon the assumption that the Canadian population is, or was, predominantly British in origin has become a specious argument, and cannot be supported by the current demographics of our nation. This does not infer we need to reconstruct our history or our Governmental origins, only that we should remain aware of the changing times and circumstances in which we continue to maintain our democracy.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

So I repeat "Erase our History"?
In the Ukrain they are riviving thier History which was erased under the Russians.

You're kidding, right?  You really feel the history of the RCE has been erased?  The Russians commited genocide on the Ukrainians in the 1930s, and then during Stalin's reign after the war did exactly what you say.

If you honestly think Unification compares in the least bit to Stalin's murders, tortures, and lies, there is something seriously wrong.

All the history books I've had access to still have the RCE mentioned in them.  Friends in Engineer units, both Regular and Reserve, send me their newsletters which still have historical articles and references to veterans with the RCE mentioned.  I corresponded with the CME Museum during the research for my first book, and got lots of good photographs of guys in RCE badges.

Let's not go overboard in making our point.  The history of the RCE has not in any way, shape or form been suppressed, buried or erased.  It's still there for anyone to take pride in.  I even daresay my own website helps do that in some small way.

As someone else said on this board, if you really need to have your cap badge tell you about your history, there are bigger problems than a simple name change can fix.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Retaining the monarchy saves us from replacing it.  Rest assured the day we cut our ties to the British sovereign, there will be a class/caste in Canada seeking to occupy the vacuum.  The Americans, poor souls, wound up with popular celebrities as surrogate royalty.  I do not care to risk treading that path.

 

[Big Foot]

the monarchy has always been, and i hope, will always be a part of Canada. they are a part of our history. besides, if we ditched the queen, who are we left with? politicians? and one other thing, with no monarchy, what would go on the top of our cap badges? a beaver? the crown looks good up there so i feel it should be left alone. tradition is tradition for a reason. lets keep the monarchy

 

[Kirkhill]

Quote from: Canuck_25 on December 29, 2004, 12:35:09

At the currrent moment, 33% of Canadians are of British heritage, 33% french, and 33% multicultural. The main point is, Canada is changing fast.


Source?

I am a full-bred Ukrainian Canadian (3 of 4 grandparents were born in Canada, but all my greats came from Ukraine).  Nothing "multi" cultural about me.

33% sounds extremly high as far as "British" heritage goes.  I wouldn't try to hard to make your point if I were you.

My grandmother considers HM Queen Elizabeth II a "parasite".  I think she makes a pretty good Colonel in Chief, but your beating the drum for British "traditions" is getting rather olllllllllllddddddddddddd...................

Actually Michael Canuck25 under-estimates the British Quotient in Canada.


According to the 2001 census 14.5 million Canadians identified themselves as being wholly or partially some sort of Brit, or about 45% of the population.

15% of the population identified themselves as being French, Quebecois or Acadian.

32% identified themselves as coming from some other European origin,
(9% Germanics or Belgian, 9% Central or Eastern Europeans(including Czech, Balts, Poles, and Slavs of all sorts), 6% Scandinavian or Dutch, 6% Southern Europeans, 2% Balkans or Greeks)

13% identified themselves as being from Asian, African, Latin American or Caribbean countries with about 1.7% stipulating origins in Islamic countries.

1% of the population described themselves as Jewish.

36% described themselves as either wholly or partly Canadian.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/highlight/ETO/Table1.cfm?Lang=E&T=501&GV=1&GID=0

Given that a such a large number of Canadians identify themselves with Britain, I think it is fair to assume that a large proportion would be unhappy at dissolving ties with Britain. 

And while I recognize many Brit origin Canadians may be republicans I am equally sure that many Commonwealth citizens as well as many Scandinavians and other Europeans are monarchists. I have met quite a few.

Your grandmother notwithstanding.....

You may find our support of the Monarchy as getting old, some of the rest of us view the constant assault on our (and your) history in the same light.  Canada's government, and our freedoms, are a direct result of having had the great good fortune to have been part of the British Empire, as opposed to the Spanish, French, Russian, Austro-Hungarian, German, Persian, Moghul, Chinese or Ottoman empires.  Empires may not be great (although some argue that they are natural and necessary)--------------- but it could have been worse.

Cheers Michael.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Yeah, but how many of those "Brits" are really bloody Welshmen...

Thanks for the info.  Ten more years of our immigration policies should swing the balance, methinks.... ;D

 

[Infanteer]

As I said before, does removing the Monarchy necessarily mean severing ties with Britain?

 

[Infanteer]

Retaining the monarchy saves us from replacing it.   Rest assured the day we cut our ties to the British sovereign, there will be a class/caste in Canada seeking to occupy the vacuum.   The Americans, poor souls, wound up with popular celebrities as surrogate royalty.   I do not care to risk treading that path.

Considering the fact that most average Canadians "worship" the same flaky celebrities (that was an issue of People at the checkout isle), I don't think the monarchy would be "replaced" by thespians.

Anyways, judging from the tabloids, I'd figure that "the monarchy" and "celebrities" are two of the exact same thing.

 

[Garbageman]

Actually Michael Canuck25 under-estimates the British Quotient in Canada.


According to the 2001 census 14.5 million Canadians identified themselves as being wholly or partially some sort of Brit, or about 45% of the population.

15% of the population identified themselves as being French, Quebecois or Acadian.

32% identified themselves as coming from some other European origin,
(9% Germanics or Belgian, 9% Central or Eastern Europeans(including Czech, Balts, Poles, and Slavs of all sorts), 6% Scandinavian or Dutch, 6% Southern Europeans, 2% Balkans or Greeks)

13% identified themselves as being from Asian, African, Latin American or Caribbean countries with about 1.7% stipulating origins in Islamic countries.

1% of the population described themselves as Jewish.

36% described themselves as either wholly or partly Canadian.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/highlight/ETO/Table1.cfm?Lang=E&T=501&GV=1&GID=0

Something's wrong with these numbers.  45+15+32+13=105%.  Unless of course you can declare yourself to be of more than one ethnic background.