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RMC Officer Sues to Avoid Saluting, Toasting Queen?

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Anyway, this thread is a hair's width away from being locked. It's going round and round. I don't think any minds are going to be changed. Let's keep things fresh, civil, and moving along, or it will be done.

Thanks.

Army.ca Staff
 
OK.  NCdt Lumber and SupersonicMax

I really don't know what they teach you guys in RMC these days, but logic doesn't seem to be one thing. 


SupersonicMax said:
Right, that's why I say she has theoratical power over us, but never really uses it.  That means the practical power is to the PM and the Parliment

I think there is a distinction between theoratical/legal and practical.  Theoratically, the CDS could take every decisions for every commander in the CFs.  Practically, he doesn't.

Max
George Wallace said:
OK?  I don't think you are reading what your wrote.


Now, I take it that you say the Queen has "theoratical power" over us, but the "practical power" is with the PM and Parliament.


This, I take you to mean that the CDS has "theoratical power" over the CF, but the "practical power" lies with the commanders in the CF, not the CDS.

Thus, if you feel there is no need for the Queen as she only has "theoratical power" and not "practical power", then you must feel the same about the CDS and that there is no need for him as he holds "theoratical power" and not the "practical power" of the 'commanders' of the CF.  

I think you were quite clear on that sentiment.  Don't you even recognize your own logic?

It seems to me that you have said the same thing about the CDS as you have said about the Queen.  If you see no point in having the Queen, you see no point in having the CDS.  Don't flip flop on me.  You made the statement.  I colour coded the similarities to make things easier for you. 
 
I think we have beating this dead horse into a stain on the road.

:deadhorse:
 
George, you mix 2 completely different statements.  All I wanted to do is, for the XIth time, GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT IS PRACTICAL and what is THEORATICAL.  I, in no way, tried to imply that we should do away with it.  What do you need more, convince myself this is what I meant to say???

Max
 
George Wallace said:
OK.  NCdt Lumber and SupersonicMax

I really don't know what they teach you guys in RMC these days, but logic doesn't seem to be one thing. 


It seems to me that you have said the same thing about the CDS as you have said about the Queen.  If you see no point in having the Queen, you see no point in having the CDS.  Don't flip flop on me.  You made the statement.  I colour coded the similarities to make things easier for you. 

GW,

I'm not going to continue SupersonicMax's debate with you about the logic of his statement and its implication, but I will argue that you should have dropped the issue as soon as he said that that was not what he meant. Let's say his logic was wrong. That wouldn't matter, because he attempted to clarify himself to you; he implored that you understand that the conclusions you drew were not the ones he was attempting to make.

And while we're continuing to be insanely off topic, I'll throw this our there:

Today in class I went to ask my teacher, Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh, a question. I noticed that the colour in between the two "captain's bars" was not the same colour as the rest of his slip-ons. His slip-ons were black, but the space in between the two gold bars was green! Can anyone explain why?
 
Mortarman Rockpainter said:
I think the word you seek is "impracticable".
"It would be impracticable for the CDS to avoid using the chain of command and instead personally issue orders to all field commanders in the Army"

"unpractical":
un-prac-ti-cal
–adjective
not practical; impractical; lacking practical usefulness or wisdom.
www.dictionary.com

There's always got to be a pundit watching my every step. Well take that!
 
NCdt Lumber said:
I noticed that the colour in between the two "captain's bars" was not the same colour as the rest of his slip-ons. His slip-ons were black, but the space in between the two gold bars was green! Can anyone explain why?

Perhaps because he wears an army uniform and they were issued to him?  Digging through a shoebox of old insignia and other junk that I have, slip-ons that I've worn from Lt to Maj all appear as you describe.  Were you thinking that it was some sort of Irish conspiracy?
 
The Sgt. and WO's mess of the 48th Highlanders has a huge picture of the queen, which faces you as you enter the mess fromthe ante room.

She is young in the picture and pretty.  We come to attention and remove any head dress we wear, otherwise people, like the loud one that wears the post office symbol on his arm.

I get my drink and sit underneath her picture.  I like it, because now people are coming attention to me.  I then talk to my friends, all the time knowing of my new hidden power.

Beer is cold in the mess too, it's neat there.  We shout and tell jokes.  People shout at us to be quiet, and we make fun of them.   All the time I know that I am the one they came to attention to at the door, not the Queen.

dileas

tess
 
NCdt Lumber said:
"unpractical":
un-prac-ti-cal
–adjective
not practical; impractical; lacking practical usefulness or wisdom.
www.dictionary.com

There's always got to be a pundit watching my every step. Well take that!
Noted; however:
Usage Note: The adjective impracticable applies to a course of action that is impossible to carry out or put into practice; impractical, though it can be used in this way, also can be weaker in sense, suggesting that the course of action would yield an insufficient return or would have little practical value. A plan for a new stadium may be rejected as impracticable if the site is too marshy to permit safe construction, but if the objection is that the site is too remote for patrons to attend games easily, the plan is better described as impractical.

This is from your very site.  You stand corrected, lad.  It would be impracticable (eg: impossible to carry out) for the CDS to issue orders to all field commanders. 

 
Fishheads, fishheads....ahh what do I know about grammar. My last boss was Australian...
 
Blackadder1916 said:
Perhaps because he wears an army uniform and they were issued to him?  Digging through a shoebox of old insignia and other junk that I have, slip-ons that I've worn from Lt to Maj all appear as you describe.  Were you thinking that it was some sort of Irish conspiracy?

He has been away from the Regiment for a while, his slip-ons are old, like some of us.
 
Now that the discussion has spiraled into semantic debates, we can end this one for now.  Do not be surprised if any of your posts disappear in a cleaning to restore the thread to posts on its original purpose.

If Harold the Celt ever makes it into the news again, the thread can be reopened at that time.

Milnet.ca Staff
 
And it is back in the news.

Queen cannot send Canadian troops to war, Attorney General says in letter aimed at settling longstanding dispute
Joseph Brean, National Post
04 December 2014

The Queen is Canada’s head of state and commander-in-chief of the Canadian Forces. She is ceremonially ubiquitous in the Forces — from the Loyal Toast given at regimental dinners to the playing of God Save The Queen and the recent renaming of the “Royal” Canadian Air Force.

According to the Attorney General of Canada, though, the monarch “cannot unilaterally deploy the Canadian Forces,” which may seem an odd thing for Canadian officials to say, given that she has never tried.

But the unusual declaration came in the settlement of a longstanding dispute between the Canadian Forces and Aralt Mac Giolla Chainnigh, a lifelong military man who served in Afghanistan and recently retired as professor of physics at the Royal Military College of Canada.

As a Canadian with Irish heritage who resents the trappings of British monarchy, he fought for many years against being made to toast the Queen at formal dinners, and only reluctantly swore allegiance to her as a representative of Canada.

His superiors were less than enthusiastic about his concerns. He said General Thomas Lawson, now Chief of Defence Staff, in his previous role as Commandant of RMC, wrote to him about his concern that the Queen possessed the constitutional prerogative to send Canada to war without parliamentary approval, saying “Don’t know. Not interested.”

The final settlement of his grievance, with its careful circumscription of the Queen’s military powers, falls in line with a recent decision of Ontario’s top court that swearing allegiance to the Queen does not violate the Charter right to free expression. That action was brought on behalf of an activist group that included people of Irish or Trinidadian background, and ideological anti-monarchists, all similarly reluctant to swear an oath of allegiance to a hereditary British monarch.

“The oath to the Queen of Canada does not violate the appellants’ right to freedom of religion and freedom of conscience because it is secular; it is not an oath to the Queen as an individual but to our form of government of which the Queen is a symbol,” the Ontario Court of Appeal ruled.

As the expression goes, a constitutional monarch reigns but does not rule. Similar conclusions were reached in Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh’s federal court case.

“I cannot think of any Canadian institution where an expectation of loyalty and respect for the Queen would be more important than the Canadian Forces,” the judge wrote, noting the importance in the military of “standards of decorum and respect,” including raising a toast to the Queen.

“This is particularly obvious in an environment of command and control management,” the judge wrote. “Whether Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh likes it or not, the fact is that the Queen is his Commander-in-Chief and Canada’s Head of State. A refusal to display loyalty and respect to the Queen where required by Canadian Forces’ policy would not only be an expression of profound disrespect and rudeness but it would also represent an unwillingness to adhere to hierarchical and lawful command structures that are fundamental to good discipline.”

A letter from the office of the Attorney General, Peter MacKay, to ultimately settle the challenge acknowledged the Queen cannot send Canadian troops into battle; that is the nature of ceremonial power. Going to war “is an executive decision that is made by the government, through Cabinet,” the letter reads. “The Queen and the Governor General stand as legally necessary figureheads in this process.”

Despite his loss in court, Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh was “not completely dissatisfied” by the experience, he said in a letter. “I had carefully, and honestly, represented an issue of justice and freedom to the legal system of the country. Although I had lost, my voice had been heard.”

He is also keen that people, especially in the military, know what is now so bluntly stated in his settlement letter. The Queen “cannot issue orders within the military establishment,” he wrote. “All that she is empowered to do is to parrot the decisions of our democratically elected officials. The power lies with the people, as it must if we are to claim the status of a democracy.”
 
I remember this weirdo from the College.  Guy lived in an RV in the RMC staff parking lot, what more needs to be said.
 
DUH!

The Queen “cannot issue orders within the military establishment,” he wrote. “All that she is empowered to do is to parrot the decisions of our democratically elected officials. The power lies with the people, as it must if we are to claim the status of a democracy.”

Anyone who has any inkling of our Parliamentary System would know this.  This only proves how stupid some people who claim to be intelligent really can be.

This is yet another case of a 'trivial' complaint tying up the courts.
 
Gunplumber said:
Did this guy get a CD? It must burn his butt have the queens head on it!

He must have holes in all his pockets and wallets.

I wonder what monetary unit he gets paid in?    >:D
 
Bit coin

bitcoins_1020_large_verge_medium_landscape.jpg


;D
 
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