Rogue Heroes

[Humphrey Bogart]

Okay, I'll bite.

I'm kinda, sorta, somewhat responsible for NTOG.

I did a crap-ton of boardings in the Gulf of Oman during Op Apollo. I am no small unit tactics guy but I was appalled at our lack of training in the basics of movement in a confined space and how to extract the team if it came under fire (jumping over the side of a cargo ship in ballast was an option???). So we did what we could with a few folks who had infantry experience but I was always supremely concerned each time we crossed over to the target vessel.

Long story short, I get posted to Fleet School after the operation and I'm put in charge of boarding training. I wanted to introduce Sim Ammo into our training syllabus but was rebuffed by Ottawa. The words to effect were "Why do you want that? You think you're some sort of JTF2 wannabe?"

So I let it drop until we had a couple of JTF-2 folks come to Fleet School and I took the opportunity for them to have a look at our Boarding Party Small arms training. And after they picked themselves off the deck from laughing so hard, their BN got the ball rolling to what the RCN has today.

I haven't been to the coast in ages to see what it has become but do we not still have the regular Naval Landing and Boarding Party Training? (yes I'm retreating to pre 1990 terms! LOL!)

If it were up to me, I would simply pick the 10 meanest sons of bitches on the Ship, you know the type I'm talking about, the ones who carry themselves well in the bar fights and have a slight criminal mind (useful when dealing with actual criminals). Give them some billy clubs and weapons and let the dogs loose

 

[quadrapiper]

If it were up to me, I would simply pick the 10 meanest sons of bitches on the Ship, you know the type I'm talking about, the ones who carry themselves well in the bar fights and have a slight criminal mind (useful when dealing with actual criminals). Give them some billy clubs and weapons and let the dogs loose

Which sounds amazingly like the comments on boarding parties in the RCN V1 boatswain TG docs.

 

[PuckChaser]

I would argue that's an advantage of being resourced and manned the size of the US Military.

CANSOF is what, 2K pers? Split between 4 line units, a school and a HQ. If that's bloated I'd love to hear your definition of RCN or CA structures.

I think you're talking out of your ass on things you have no clue about, and parroting old stereotypes.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

CANSOF is what, 2K pers? Split between 4 line units, a school and a HQ. If that's bloated I'd love to hear your definition of RCN or CA structures.

I think you're talking out of your ass on things you have no clue about, and parroting old stereotypes.

Correct. I think CANSOFCOM is a necessary evil due to the fact some of the capabilities it brings would get bungled by the Army, RCN, etc.

In other words, the Army wouldn't manage it effectively so they needed to create new HQs, units, etc. Lots of duplications of effort but it protects those units from the dumpster fires LOL.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Which sounds amazingly like the comments on boarding parties in the RCN V1 boatswain TG docs.

I've also done lots of boardings myself. Participated in 25 actual boardings, in all facets of the operations, 16 of which resulted in successful seizures.

Go on a Dhow, the drug addled Arabs, Somalis and Persians in the Middle East are all about 5'0, 100lbs soaking wet and are all cracked out on heroin, kat, etc. If I punched one, they are so sickly, it would likely result in a fatality.

They are scared shitless of us, the most dangerous part of a boarding is getting there and then dealing with the real bad conditions on board their vessels.

Dealing with the crew is like taking candy from a baby. What are they going to do? Shoot at us? Ok, I'll just drive away and the warship 500x off their quarter will turn their vessel in to swiss cheese in about 5 seconds.

 

[OldSolduer]

Correct. I think CANSOFCOM is a necessary evil due to the fact some of the capabilities it brings would get bungled by the Army, RCN, etc.

In other words, the Army wouldn't manage it effectively so they needed to create new HQs, units, etc. Lots of duplications of effort but it protects those units from the dumpster fires LOL.

The Regular Army doesn't trust SOF nor do they like them. When I made mention in the 80s that Canada needed an SOF capability it was like "how dare you think stuff like that" attitude. The Army doesn't like losing soldiers never to see them again and if they do its in an op context.

SOF also encourages thinkers - not drones.
Gotta add that the "you're only a (Insert rank here ) we don't pay you to think" attitude was very prevalent, even though our Regiment was founded on the premise that thinking soldiers were the best.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The Regular Army doesn't trust SOF nor do they like them. When I made mention in the 80s that Canada needed an SOF capability it was like "how dare you think stuff like that" attitude. The Army doesn't like losing soldiers never to see them again and if they do its in an op context.

SOF also encourages thinkers - not drones.
Gotta add that the "you're only a (Insert rank here ) we don't pay you to think" attitude was very prevalent, even though our Regiment was founded on the premise that thinking soldiers were the best.

Yep, I do believe they would royally screw it up, just like a lot of other things.

I mean we had senior leadership who thought there was no need for the Infantry to have things like Mortars, Anti-tank, heavy machineguns, etc. I can't even imagine how badly they would bungle the SOF file .

 

[Halifax Tar]

CANSOF is what, 2K pers? Split between 4 line units, a school and a HQ. If that's bloated I'd love to hear your definition of RCN or CA structures.

I think you're talking out of your ass on things you have no clue about, and parroting old stereotypes.

I think I hit a nerve.

There are a lot of people under the SOF umbrella who would better gainfully employed in one of the other Commands.

SOF is way more than door kickers, I know lot of people who hide under a tan beret with a Log cap badge to avoid deployments, sea and field time and postings.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

The Regular Army doesn't trust SOF nor do they like them. When I made mention in the 80s that Canada needed an SOF capability it was like "how dare you think stuff like that" attitude. The Army doesn't like losing soldiers never to see them again and if they do its in an op context.

That probably applies to just about every army out there, not just the Canadian Army.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Just FYI if the CAF is 68K and if SOF has 4k that's 5.88% of our people. Take out the various folks who are NS, for what ever reason, and that percentage is SOF gets higher.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Just FYI if the CAF is 68K and if SOF has 4k that's 5.88% of our people. Take out the various folks who are NS, for what ever reason, and that percentage is SOF gets higher.

Yeah, that's pretty crazy.

I assume it's all part of the tradition though.

You know the one: 'always be prepared for the last conflict.'

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Regular Army doesn't trust SOF nor do they like them. When I made mention in the 80s that Canada needed an SOF capability it was like "how dare you think stuff like that" attitude. The Army doesn't like losing soldiers never to see them again and if they do its in an op context.

To be fair, although the British have a great SOF reputation their 'Specials' are continually looking over their shoulders, wondering when the auditor will cross them out with a green pen.

And so they should. It wasn't until the Falklands War revealed some big cracks in their various private armies, leading to a search for efficiencies and a push to work closer together, which is where they started in the 1940s of course.

For example the SAS and SBS had two very separate (and expensive) selections which, recently, have finally been combined in the initial phases.

Through showing a willingness to make improvements like that, they should do themselves a favour with respect to the futures of their organizations.

 

[PuckChaser]

Just FYI if the CAF is 68K and if SOF has 4k that's 5.88% of our people. Take out the various folks who are NS, for what ever reason, and that percentage is SOF gets higher.

CANSOF isn't 4K. Pretty SSE only allows it up to 2500ish. So basically JTF-A during Kandahar, but responsible for global and domestic response. CANSOF eats a lot of the serviceable Signalers the CA has. That's fine, because Comd CA has told his COs to stop blocking CANSOF NOIs. Want to guess the reason? Because if folks see a carrot, they'll stay in the CAF even if they aren't successful, even for stressed or dying trades. So yeah, I lose Signalers to CANSOF, but I'm likely losing them anyways to civvie street.

 

[dimsum]

That probably applies to just about every army out there, not just the Canadian Army.

Most of our allies don't have actual different uniforms for SOF though - same uniform, different coloured berets and badges.

Also, why do only certain parts of CANSOF have different DEU?

 

[Halifax Tar]

CANSOF isn't 4K. Pretty SSE only allows it up to 2500ish. So basically JTF-A during Kandahar, but responsible for global and domestic response. CANSOF eats a lot of the serviceable Signalers the CA has. That's fine, because Comd CA has told his COs to stop blocking CANSOF NOIs. Want to guess the reason? Because if folks see a carrot, they'll stay in the CAF even if they aren't successful, even for stressed or dying trades. So yeah, I lose Signalers to CANSOF, but I'm likely losing them anyways to civvie street.

Totally my fault. For some reason I read 4k in your post.

Could be the James Ready.

Anyways. We aren't big enough to be all singing all dancing. If this is the golden cow so be it. I think we could do with better resource management.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Most of our allies don't have actual different uniforms for SOF though - same uniform, different coloured berets and badges.

Also, why do only certain parts of CANSOF have different DEU everything?

There, FTFY

Mod edit: article deleted as per site quidelines

 

[daftandbarmy]

 

[Kirkhill]

To be fair, although the British have a great SOF reputation their 'Specials' are continually looking over their shoulders, wondering when the auditor will cross them out with a green pen.

And so they should. It wasn't until the Falklands War revealed some big cracks in their various private armies, leading to a search for efficiencies and a push to work closer together, which is where they started in the 1940s of course.

For example the SAS and SBS had two very separate (and expensive) selections which, recently, have finally been combined in the initial phases.

Through showing a willingness to make improvements like that, they should do themselves a favour with respect to the futures of their organizations.

The Brit "Specials" looking over their shoulders include both the Paras and the Marines.

 

[Furniture]

Most of our allies don't have actual different uniforms for SOF though - same uniform, different coloured berets and badges.

Also, why do only certain parts of CANSOF have different DEU?

Because if the support people wear tan berets, how can we tell who the  real SOF folks are?

 

[dapaterson]

They have beards and long hair?

Ohhh...