Role of Officer vs job of NCM [Merged]

[joonrooj]

I found this very confusing at first as well,
but basically there are two rank structures in the CF:
the NCM and NCO:
Private, Corporal, Master Corporal, Sergeant, Warrant Officer, Master Warrant Officer, and Chief Warrant Officer.
and the Commissioned:
Officer Cadet (not commissioned, basically a private who is learning to become an officer), 2nd Lieutenant, Lieutenant, Captain, Major, Lieutenant Colonel, Colonel, Brigadier General, Major General, Lieutenant General, General.

Here is a link that explains this and lists it out:
http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Rank_Structure_of_the_CF
As for your other questions, I`m sure I would bollocks them up and offend someone, someone will be along shortly to help

 

[traviss-g]

Wow thanks you very much answered alot of my questions. It is also nice to know i'm not the first to be confused by this  . One more question, does that mean that an officer cadet can tell a Chief Warrant Officer what to do?

 

[Run away gun]

Hi,
So I realize this might seem like a very stupid question but what is the difference? I understand that to be a comissioned officer you have a degree. But i have a few more questions:
1. Is there a point where an NCO can no longer be promoted and if so is it lower than that of a comissioned officer.
  A) If there is a "ceiling" for NCOs can they get around it i.e get a university degree?
2. (my understanding of the chain of command in the army is very limited at best) Is there a difference betweeen a lets say sgt who is an NCO and a sgt who is a commisioned officer.
3. What is the difference in duties performed by NCOs and comissioned officers?
4. A little off topic but could someone provide me with a link to better understand the different ranks?
Thanks for reading,
Travis

1. Chief Warrant Officer(Chief Petty Officer 1st Class), also refered to as Regimental Sargent Major.
a) NCOs can get around the ceiling by commissioning from the ranks (CFR as it is commonly refered to), whereby they take a commission, and are automatically given the rank of Lieutenant or Captain and continue their progress through the officer rank structure. They do not need a degree, however CFR is usually only offered to Senior NCOs ( Sgts and above).

2. Sgts are NCOs, not commissioned officers. The rank structures are totally different, all Captains are commissioned, just as all Sgts are NCOs.

3. To put it simply, commissioned officers draw up and give orders, NCOs execute them. Commissioned officers are generally at the top of the chain of command of their organization (their platoon, company, battalion..) and report to the CO (Commanding officer, another commissioned officer, usually a Lt-Col) on the success of the mission/tasking. The NCOs are there to ensure the work is completed and that discipline is maintained throughout. It is mainly Corporals and Privates who carry out the work.

 

[traviss-g]

Alright! This has got to be one of the best forums ever! I posted this question and within about two hours I had all the answers i wanted and more! Thank you guys very much!   ;D Does this mean an officer cadet can tell a Chief WO what to do? also is that the right abbreviation or could i just use CWO or should i type Chief warrant officer?

 

[Michael OLeary]

Alright! This has got to be one of the best forums ever! I posted this question and within about two hours I had all the answers i wanted and more! Thank you guys very much!  ;D Does this mean an officer cadet can tell a Chief WO what to do? also is that the right abbreviation or could i just use CWO or should i type Chief warrant officer?

In theory, yes, an Officer Cadet could be in a position where he/she might "tell" a Chief Warrant Officer (abbreviated CWO) what to do.  In reality, however, the likelihood of the two being in such a situation is extremely rare.  If, by some chance, an officer cadet was placed in a position of authority over a CWO it would likely be in a very temporary situation such as an acting Command Post Duty Officer (or some such appointment) and circumstances would be such that both were fully aware of the exact limitations of that authority with respect to their particular duties at the moment.

I expect you are picturing in your head a brand new shiny Officer Cadet arriving at a training base and meeting a CWO who would have to do anything he ordered.  You can dispense with that image, it isn't going to happen.

 

[Loachman]

Does this mean an officer cadet can tell a Chief WO what to do?

Not normally. An Officer Cadet has no authority. Any attempt would cause amusement to any witnesses.

also is that the right abbreviation or could i just use CWO or should i type Chief warrant officer?

CWO for short.

And, to gently correct a previous poster, a CWO is not necessarily a Regimental Sergeant Major. If wearing green, yes, if light blue, see "amusement to any witnesses" if addressed as such.

 

[traviss-g]

I expect you are picturing in your head a brand new shiny Officer Cadet arriving at a training base and meeting a CWO who would have to do anything he ordered. 

Haha yea, you read my mind! Thanks, again, I really appreciate the answers.

And, to gently correct a previous poster, a CWO is not necessarily a Regimental Sergeant Major. If wearing green, yes, if light blue, see "amusement to any witnesses" if addressed as such.

I'm sure if I understood half those words I would be on the floor laughing  !

 

[Loachman]

I'm sure if I understood half those words I would be on the floor laughing  !

Not really.

"RSM" is an appointment, ie a job title. An RSM is the highest non-commissioned rank in an Army unit, and has been likened to God. His rank is usually CWO. He is responsible for many things, including discipline and morale of those NCMs junior to him. He is usually found very close to the CO.

His equivalent in an air force unit is known as the Squadron Chief Warrant Officer, or SCWO (sometimes referred to, outside of his presence, as the "Screw"). Call him an RSM and correction will be immediate, loud, and possibly almost as colourful as an RSM's correction.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Not really.

"RSM" is an appointment, ie a job title. An RSM is the highest non-commissioned rank in an Army unit, and has been likened to God. His rank is usually CWO. He is responsible for many things, including discipline and morale of those NCMs junior to him. He is usually found very close to the CO.

His equivalent in an air force unit is known as the Squadron Chief Warrant Officer, or SCWO (sometimes referred to, outside of his presence, as the "Screw"). Call him an RSM and correction will be immediate, loud, and possibly almost as colourful as an RSM's correction.

And to make things a bit more confusing SCWO could also mean School Chief Warrant Officer

 

[greenjacket]

Is BSM the right short form for Brigade  Sgt-Maj or is his official title something else, and what about Area RSM's would it be something like LFCASM or something, i know that sounds crazy but I'm just wondering if their is a different title for them other then RSM

 

[Harley Sailor]

And that doesn't even count what you call a Chief in the Navy

 

[Harley Sailor]

If you want to look at the difference between NCO and Comissioned officers all you have to do is look at Management and and workers in most big companies.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Is BSM the right short form for Brigade  Sgt-Maj or is his official title something else, and what about Area RSM's would it be something like LFCASM or something, i know that sounds crazy but I'm just wondering if their is a different title for them other then RSM

Actually the title is Brigade CWO and Area CWO, but the name more often used is Bde RSM and Area RSM...which makes no sense if you think about it for a second. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

1. Chief Warrant Officer(Chief Petty Officer 1st Class), also refered to as Regimental Sargent Major.

Not always.  A CP01 is referred to as Cox'n.  A CWO who is not a RSM is not called RSM. 

a) NCOs can get around the ceiling by commissioning from the ranks (CFR as it is commonly refered to), whereby they take a commission, and are automatically given the rank of Lieutenant or Captain and continue their progress through the officer rank structure. They do not need a degree, however CFR is usually only offered to Senior NCOs ( Sgts and above).

Sgt's are the only Senior NCOs in the CF.  Warrant Officers are Warrant Officers, not Snr NCOs.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Traviss-g,

There are 3 sides of the rank structure; Non-Commissioned Members, Subordinate Officers and Commissioned Officers.  I will use the Army rank structure for ease (the Navy uses different names)

Non-Commissioned:  All ranks from Pte to CWO
Break Down:

Privates:  there are Pte (R) for recruits, Pte(T) for trained.  Also, 3 trades in the Combat Arms call their Privates traditional names once they are trained.  Trooper=Pte(T) in Armour, Sapper=Pte(T) in Combat Engineers, and Gunner=Pte(T) in the Artillery.  Signals also use Signalmen for Pte(T).  Also, in Airborne units, Pte(T)'s are normal called Trooper.  How do you tell an Airborne Trooper from an Armoured one?  Berets of course; Airborne wear maroon and Armour wears black.

Junior NCOs:  Cpl and MCpl

Senior NCOs:  Sgts (and only Sgts)

Warrant Officers:  WO, MWO, CWO

As you can see not all NCMs are NCOs, but all NCOs are NCMs.  There are 3 ranks that are properly refferred to as NCOs.  WOs are NOT, I repeat NOT NCOs.  They are Warrant Officers. 

 
Subordinate Officers:  Officer Cadet, properly referred to as a Subordinate Officer, as they do not have a Commission.

Commissioned Officers:  2Lts to General
Breakdown:

Junior Officers:  2Lt, Lt and Capt

Senior Officers (sometimes referred to as Field Grade):  Maj, Lt Col and Col

General Officers:  Brigadier General, Major General, Lieutenant General and General.


In general terms, you can have authority over subordinates by rank, or by appointment.  I've been staff on courses where, say, there were 3 Sgts, and one of them was appointed the Course WO position, where the other 2 Sgts are subordinate to him by appointment.


Mods, can you delete this post?  I missed the first or second reply with the link to everything I've just typed out. 

 

[traviss-g]

OK i think i am understanding now. I do have another question though, how often/easy is it for NCO's to move to COs (By CO i mean comissioned officer, not sure if that is right abbreviation.) like how often do say, sgt. move up to LT. or Capt? And how easy is it for them to do such a thing? I am just wondering becuase I am joining as an NCM but I am wondering if i end up wanting to move up what my options are. I don't have a degree so I know i wont be applying as a DEO (I think that is what it is called) but i am just curious. Also in general would a CWO be more respected than a Capt? I know i keep saying it but i cant say it enough, thanks for everyone help  !

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

http://army.ca/forums/threads/1330.0/

http://army.ca/forums/threads/23230.0.html

 

[Loachman]

"CO" is Commanding Officer, and there is only one of those per unit, ie Infantry Battalion, Amoured or Artillery Regiment etcetera.

There are several threads describing Officer requirements and commissioning plans. You just need to look.

 

[traviss-g]

Alright sorry but I really did try to look, I used the search function looking for keywords such as "Difference, NCO, commisioned". I am a little niave as to using the search funtion  ??? and my first post was locked for the same reason. So I am sorry for repeat question  :-[. So what is the correct abbreviation for a comissioned officer?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Normally, we just say Officer.  As all of them have commissions.

"The WO is  in talking to the officer now".