Role of Officer vs job of NCM [Merged]

[FJAG]

. . . I was disappointed finding out that officer and soldier have completely different training. I wish I could become soldier but learn leadership too.

In the army the training is not completely different at all. In the beginning officers take pretty much the same basic training and artillery skills training that all gunners do. In addition they also take leadership training and specialized artillery training that teaches them how do reconnaissance for and occupy gun positions, how to run a gun line during firing, how artillery fits tactically into the battlefield and various other skills. That can take the better part of a year to learn.

If you do go in as a gunner in the ranks you will still have the opportunity to learn leadership during non commissioned officers' training.

:cheers:

 

[ModlrMike]

Having been an NCO, and now an officer, I can comfortably state that FJAG's remarks are spot on. The only other observation I would make is that Jr Officers are expected to progress to competence much faster than junior NCM. There is an expectation that by the time you have two fat bars on your shoulder you have more of your stuff together than a new promoted Cpl.

 

[GnyHwy]

Everything here so far is what you need to hear, and as you said, what you wanted to hear.

Just speaking of Jnr O training, that is mostly segregated from NCM training, the training has the same foundations, maybe more so in the Arty than any other trade.  It is the actions or "verb" you are expected to be competent at, that changes.  For NCMs, especially at the lower levels, the verb will be "operate" or "conduct".  For Os at the lower levels it will be "lead" or "supervise".  NCMs will eventually do the "lead" once they've had some time to show potential.  NCMs will also be trained on the verb "instruct", "evaluate" and "mentor", and will be your instructors for the the majority of your Arty specific Jnr O training.

Another way to look at it at the Jnr level is, NCMs will be expected to be masters of operating and troubleshooting systems, while Os will be expected to be masters of employing and deploying systems. 

 

[GreenWood]

I wonder if it's better to just chose the easier path.

I think you will be shocked when you realize that being an NCM is not really an "Easy" path

 

[GnyHwy]

In his defence, he did say "easier" and that is certainly relative to what a person might consider easy.  As an O, you will not spend as much time time humping ammo and weapons or building field defences, but conversely you will spend a hell of a lot more time reading, formulating and writing plans and still be expected to conduct the plan once in effect.  A matter of perspective I guess.

One thing is for sure, if an O is doing his job to the fullest, they are getting less sleep!

 

[NSDreamer]

One thing is for sure, if an O is doing his job to the fullest, they are getting less sleep!

It's the development piece, I can't remember the last time I wasn't enrolled in some kind of professional development course on top of regular work...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think you will be shocked when you realize that being an NCM is not really an "Easy" path

Speaking from your wealth of experience?  Your kind really cracks me up.

http://Army.ca/forums/threads/12797/post-1355157.html#msg1355157

 

[GreenWood]

Speaking from your wealth of experience?  Your kind really cracks me up.

http://Army.ca/forums/threads/12797/post-1355157.html#msg1355157

I wasn't speaking from a wealth of experience, my experience can be seen just by clicking my profile. I was just giving an opinion, that I don't think there really is an "easy" way in which ever route he decides to take his military career.

 

[Flavus101]

Speaking from your wealth of experience?  Your kind really cracks me up.

http://Army.ca/forums/threads/12797/post-1355157.html#msg1355157

Do you disagree with his statement? I couldn't tell from that post.

 

[ElecEngGirl]

I have been debating for a while what to do with my life after High School.  Everyone wants me to go to RMC and get a degree.  The thing is that I don‘t want to become an officer, I have fallen in love with the Field work and exercises that the NCM does.  I can‘t make up my mind but I‘m leaning towards the Reserves and then Reg Force (Argylls for reserves and RCR for Reg).  What is all your opinions?

thanks

Argyll 2347

When it comes down to it, it's all up to you. Choices like these should not be forced onto you by friends and family members. I'm currently a student at RMC. I remember back in First Year when we all just arrived. We had a few guys that immediately released from the Forces because they realized RMC was not for them, even after all those months going through the recruiting process. Then again over the last couple of years we've easily lost almost 20 people in my year, what with people just realizing they didn't like the field, they didn't like the leadership aspect, they didn't like academics...etc.

My advice: do what your heart tells you to do. If you've fallen in love with field work and hands on stuff, by all means, go for it! Regardless whether you're an Officer or an NCM, both will bring you absolutely amazing careers. It's much better to do a job you'll love.

Although, as another option, you could apply to RMC. If you get in, you can do your 4 years of free education and gain military experience as an officer, and then after graduation transfer over to NCM. This would give you the opportunity to hone in on your leadership skills.

Hope everything works out,

 

[Loachman]

Argyll's either managed to figure it out in the fourteen-and-a-bit years since he posted his question, or he's wandered off and found something else to do. His account is no longer active, either way.

 

[PuckChaser]

Although, as another option, you could apply to RMC. If you get in, you can do your 4 years of free education and gain military experience as an officer, and then after graduation transfer over to NCM. This would give you the opportunity to hone in on your leadership skills.

Pretty sure that's not possible. Relinquishing a commission is not something to take likely. You're also not getting real experience as an officer because you're in the training system. Think of RMC as 4 years of Basic Officer Training combined with university. Your real education is when you hit the real CAF, in a real job, leading real soldiers/sailors/airmen/airwomen.

 

[sidemount]

Not to mention the obligitory service as an officer that you inherit.

 

[DAA]

Although, as another option, you could apply to RMC. If you get in, you can do your 4 years of free education and gain military experience as an officer, and then after graduation transfer over to NCM. This would give you the opportunity to hone in on your leadership skills.

If only it were that simple............

When I worked at a training establishment, we had various creative ways to deal with these situations.  The first being "Go ahead and submit your request for Voluntary Release but be prepared to reimburse the Crown for your education" or my favourite of the SRB route which usually ended up as "Not recommended for any further Officer occupational training.  Recommended for retention as a MOC ZULU Officer for the remaining period of obligatory service".  Nothing like having a 2Lt on staff to do data input/filing jobs for the next 4 years.   

 

[Blake Castelein]

I've seen a few articles and even read people on army.ca saying there is a very top heavy ratio of officers to NCM, so for someone who doesn't mind either route would applying as an NCM be more beneficial and/or helpful to the CAF?

(Apologies in advance if this has already been answered and/or is a dumb question)

 

[Ayrsayle]

Not entirely sure with what intent you are asking:

Helpful to the CAF?  The CAF needs both and ultimately you choosing to join as an officer or NCM isn't going to change the systemic structure of the CAF as a whole.  In short (and in my opinion), you'd be better served joining in whatever particular stream you think you'd be best at and would ultimately find the most rewarding.  That would serve the needs of the CAF as a whole better then picking a stream solely based on opinions on this forum.

There is a saying in the Army - "everyone can be replaced". 

Beneficial?  That would depend on what you want to do in the CAF and what in particular you have as career goals.

 

[Blake Castelein]

Not entirely sure with what intent you are asking:

Helpful to the CAF?  The CAF needs both and ultimately you choosing to join as an officer or NCM isn't going to change the systemic structure of the CAF as a whole.  In short (and in my opinion), you'd be better served joining in whatever particular stream you think you'd be best at and would ultimately find the most rewarding.  That would serve the needs of the CAF as a whole better then picking a stream solely based on opinions on this forum.

There is a saying in the Army - "everyone can be replaced". 

Beneficial?  That would depend on what you want to do in the CAF and what in particular you have as career goals.

Okay! Thank you, you're right I wasn't very specific with my question. I'm torn between combat engineer or infantry, and again still pondering between NCM or officer. Thank you for the insight, I never really looked at it that way.

 

[RussTheMann]

Hey everyone,
so Im currently in the middle of my degree, and I know I want to join the forces after I graduate. But I also know that Im stuck between becoming an NCM and an Officer. I want to be an NCM (infantry) for the wide variety of courses I can take, be the whole "boots on the ground" idea and be one of the guys. But I also enjoy the larger leadership capabilities of an officer, the consistency of the job and how it'd be easier to turn it into your career. and lets be honest, the pay isn't that bad either. What my real question is, is it bad or taboo to be an NCM then re-enlist as an officer? Or is there a large amount of scrutiny placed on people who do that. Any and all answers accepted!

 

[George Wallace]

Twenty-two (22) pages here should give you some ideas.

 

[Ayrsayle]

Hey everyone,
so Im currently in the middle of my degree, and I know I want to join the forces after I graduate. But I also know that Im stuck between becoming an NCM and an Officer. I want to be an NCM (infantry) for the wide variety of courses I can take, be the whole "boots on the ground" idea and be one of the guys. But I also enjoy the larger leadership capabilities of an officer, the consistency of the job and how it'd be easier to turn it into your career. and lets be honest, the pay isn't that bad either. What my real question is, is it bad or taboo to be an NCM then re-enlist as an officer? Or is there a large amount of scrutiny placed on people who do that. Any and all answers accepted!

So - Standard caveats apply in that your questions have been answered in detail multiple times.  Items starred are personal opinion. In summary:

NCM to Officer is not a guaranteed process at any stage (read into the various methods in which it can happen).  Breaking service to "re-enlist" can have a detrimental impact on "turning it into a career" from a financial standpoint, etc. 

*Taboo?  I've known a few NCMs (Two Sgts, and a WO) who have expressed interest in making the jump.  The Two Sgts were talked out of it/realized they would be more fulfilling careers as NCMs.  The WO just recently had his application approved.  The WO gets a few jabs here and there, but it is largely good natured.  I highly doubt you will be able to play the "I have no idea what is going on" card as a former NCM - You've already seen (and most likely performed) leadership tasks throughout your career.  There is no "bad" - there are some excellent Officers who were former NCMs and there are some poor ones.  Look for stories on this board for more details.

*Leadership comes from both sides of the house - NCMs and Officers both provide/handle leadership tasks.  Officers "tend" to move around more then NCMs, especially during the start of their careers (An infantry NCM, as an example, will likely remain within his Bn until he has become a senior Cpl/MCpl.)  While the transition to "leadership responsibilities" may be more gradual on the NCM side, those that show capabilities in this regard usually move up the ranks to hold them, etc.  I've worked with many NCMs who have degrees - absolutely no stigma attached to their choices (in truth, some days I envy them). 

If it is solely opinions you are looking for regarding how former NCMs are seen however, the topic/questions would probably be better in the "personal stories" area.  If you had questions about the Infantry Officer job in general - Technoviking's posts are an excellent place to start.  As is George Wallace's point.