RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's

[ytz]

Is Abbotsford airport big enough?

After 'the big one' all the C-17s will likely be there anyways, assuming the runway survives

Sounds like a good candidate for strategic infrastructure spending.....

 

[Halifax Tar]

Honestly, I think the CA is driving this one. The RCAF drove the Airbus buy by arguing for more and larger tankers. The biggest user and forecast demand for strat airlift is the CA though. If they come to the table and say they need to be able to move a battalion of LAV 6 to Latvia in 4 days, that drives a requirement for a fleet of 8-10 C-17s.

Which makes complete sense. They have bigger deployments.

If the Army wants true strategic lift though, they need to look at shipping.

For us, the RCN, grey tails make moving our sundry of requirements a lot easier and more dependable.

 

[captloadie]

We can fantasize about what the "needed" fleet size is all we want, but the reality is that even if money is no barrier, personnel and the training pipeline is. If the C-17 production line were to reopen (which to be honest is unlikely unless the aircraft manufacturer is allowed to sell units internationally without the Gov't approval process) the RCAF's likely COA would be to recap the current fleet, and maybe add that 6th one. We have been driving those airframes hard, along with the crews and maintainers, and everything is getting worn thin. Even if the line were to reopen, it would be years before we could take delivery of one, which probably would have a slew of upgrades requiring additional retraining.

 

[ytz]

Very rough math for anybody who wants to calculate.

One C-17 can move two LAV 6.0 or three LAV III in 9 hrs of flight time to Latvia. Add pre flight, post-flight, crew change and we're talking about one rotation per 24 hrs roughly. So if we want to move 60 LAV 6.0, that's 30 round trips. So 8 aircraft can do it 4 days. A single C-17 squadron (of 8 frames) could probably move the better part of a CMBG to Europe in 2 weeks.

 

[dapaterson]

Very rough math for anybody who wants to calculate.

One C-17 can move two LAV 6.0 or three LAV III in 9 hrs of flight time to Latvia. Add pre flight, post-flight, crew change and we're talking about one rotation per 24 hrs roughly. So if we want to move 60 LAV 6.0, that's 30 round trips. So 8 aircraft can do it 4 days. A single C-17 squadron (of 8 frames) could probably move the better part of a CMBG to Europe in 2 weeks.

Service battalion laughs at your two week estimate

 

[ytz]

We can fantasize about what the "needed" fleet size is all we want, but the reality is that even if money is no barrier, personnel and the training pipeline is. If the C-17 production line were to reopen (which to be honest is unlikely unless the aircraft manufacturer is allowed to sell units internationally without the Gov't approval process) the RCAF's likely COA would be to recap the current fleet, and maybe add that 6th one. We have been driving those airframes hard, along with the crews and maintainers, and everything is getting worn thin. Even if the line were to reopen, it would be years before we could take delivery of one, which probably would have a slew of upgrades requiring additional retraining.

I would normally agree with you. But politics aside, we're in the Prime Minister's Santa Claus era for Defence. As long as you can argue a solid case, you can get money. I don't know who works on C-17s at the air staff. But I sure hope they dig deep and find some 2LT with an English major to write that TB Sub. They might be able to double the fleet if they can tell a good story. We're in a time period where some submissions are being sent back and told to ask for more. Never, ever seen or even heard of that in my career.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Very rough math for anybody who wants to calculate.

One C-17 can move two LAV 6.0 or three LAV III in 9 hrs of flight time to Latvia. Add pre flight, post-flight, crew change and we're talking about one rotation per 24 hrs roughly. So if we want to move 60 LAV 6.0, that's 30 round trips. So 8 aircraft can do it 4 days. A single C-17 squadron (of 8 frames) could probably move the better part of a CMBG to Europe in 2 weeks.

The Bob Hope class is roughly 67'000K tons full. With 380'000 square feet of cargo capacity, and can move at 24 Knots. With a crew that fluctuates from 45 to 50.

Conservatively lets put her cruising speed at 12 knots. Thats an estimated 10 to 11 days transit at half speed to go from Que City to Rotterdam.

Here are some more ideas. And some the US has laid up and my be interested in selling.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I am personally hoping for at least 7-8. But honestly, as we see on the fighter side and increasingly on some others like space, politics is driving so much decision-making

Welcome to the entire history of Maritime Helicopters in Canada…

 

[YZT580]

Very rough math for anybody who wants to calculate.

One C-17 can move two LAV 6.0 or three LAV III in 9 hrs of flight time to Latvia. Add pre flight, post-flight, crew change and we're talking about one rotation per 24 hrs roughly. So if we want to move 60 LAV 6.0, that's 30 round trips. So 8 aircraft can do it 4 days. A single C-17 squadron (of 8 frames) could probably move the better part of a CMBG to Europe in 2 weeks.

Halifax to Riga at 20 knots will do it in a week on 1 ship. Time to invest in an auxiliary fleet. 4 RO RO and 2 tankers if you wish to cover both sides and you could probably have the entire fleet up and operational in a year if you buy used. Get them Seasway sized and probably a couple of years for the first one built on the Great Lakes and then 1 per year thereafter provided you don't stick with the NSS approved yards.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Halifax to Riga at 20 knots will do it in a week on 1 ship. Time to invest in an auxiliary fleet. 4 RO RO and 2 tankers if you wish to cover both sides and you could probably have the entire fleet up and operational in a year if you buy used. Get them Seasway sized and probably a couple of years for the first one built on the Great Lakes and then 1 per year thereafter provided you don't stick with the NSS approved yards.

There is room for both Strat Air Lift and Strat Sea Lift, both have serious and important roles to play. Both need investment and expansion, in the case of sea lift; creation.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Halifax to Riga at 20 knots will do it in a week on 1 ship. Time to invest in an auxiliary fleet. 4 RO RO and 2 tankers if you wish to cover both sides and you could probably have the entire fleet up and operational in a year if you buy used. Get them Seasway sized and probably a couple of years for the first one built on the Great Lakes and then 1 per year thereafter provided you don't stick with the NSS approved yards.

And don't forget the railway infrastructure needed at both ends

 

[Halifax Tar]

And don't forget the railway infrastructure needed at both ends

Just position the whole of the Army around Que City and Vancouver! Voila! Problem solved

 

[dapaterson]

Just position the whole of the Army around Que City and Vancouver! Voila! Problem solved

Nah, Garrison Churchill for the win!

 

[Halifax Tar]

Nah, Garrison Churchill for the win!

One stop shopping you can go east or west from there. I like it!

 

[Czech_pivo]

There is room for both Strat Air Lift and Strat Sea Lift, both have serious and important roles to play. Both need investment and expansion, in the case of sea lift; creation.

Add to the above - redundancy - never underestimate the need for redundancy. By this I'm referring to having 'back-up' or 'alternative' options available.

 

[ytz]

There is room for both Strat Air Lift and Strat Sea Lift, both have serious and important roles to play. Both need investment and expansion, in the case of sea lift; creation.

Yeah. The question goes to the CA. What do they believe would be vanguard element that needs to move quickly during a scenario of escalating tensions resulting in mobilization. The rest would/should go be sea and reach 2 weeks later.

I think the US Army, for example, has/had a requirement to be able to move a Stryker Brigade to Europe in 96 hrs. To that end, their C-17 and C-5 Wings are designed to meet that requirement.

 

[ytz]

The Bob Hope class is roughly 67'000K tons full. With 380'000 square feet of cargo capacity, and can move at 24 Knots. With a crew that fluctuates from 45 to 50.

Conservatively lets put her cruising speed at 12 knots. Thats an estimated 10 to 11 days transit at half speed to go from Que City to Rotterdam.

Here are some more ideas. And some the US has laid up and my be interested in selling.

I've long thought that we should buy some ocean ferries adequate for mil sealift and give them to Marine Atlantic and BC Ferries to employ with some contingency arrangement where we can use them in an emergency.

 

[Kirkhill]

Halifax to Riga at 20 knots will do it in a week on 1 ship. Time to invest in an auxiliary fleet. 4 RO RO and 2 tankers if you wish to cover both sides and you could probably have the entire fleet up and operational in a year if you buy used. Get them Seasway sized and probably a couple of years for the first one built on the Great Lakes and then 1 per year thereafter provided you don't stick with the NSS approved yards.

Go the European route.

Maersk, DFDS and Stena, among others, have contracts to move military goods on priority. They are subsidised to keep surplus capacity on their standing routes so that they can handle exercises without disrupting their commercial service. We coul do the same with Marine Atlantic and BC Ferries as well as northern shipping companies.

I don't see why the same logic couldn't be applied to air transport with civilian carriers being subsidized to keep a number of militarily suitable aircraft in their fleet as well as reserve pilots on their payrolls. Sometimes even civilians want to get outsize cargoes into rough spots.