Saudi gang-rape victim is jailed

[ixium]

All you have to do is look at other basic rights people should have.

From 1770's till 2003 there have been countries that abolished slavery. Theres countries today where slavery is still not against the law.

You can't agrue facts that different countries/cultures are going to do things at different speeds. There aren't many ways of speeding up the process without acts of violence. The country as a whole has to realize that it needs to change, not someone thousands of miles away.

I'm not saying that what happened to that women isn't wrong. But she knew the laws and the punishments. Breaking the rules is not the way something gets changed.

 

[armyvern]

All you have to do is look at other basic rights people should have.

From 1770's till 2003 there have been countries that abolished slavery. Theres countries today where slavery is still not against the law.

You can't agrue facts that different countries/cultures are going to do things at different speeds. There aren't many ways of speeding up the process without acts of violence. The country as a whole has to realize that it needs to change, not someone thousands of miles away.

I'm not saying that what happened to that women isn't wrong. But she knew the laws and the punishments. Breaking the rules is not the way something gets changed.

So, they work at their own speed ... that's well and fine and completely understood.

So the rest of us should just sit back, shut up, and keep our outrage to ourselves; allowing them to get their heads out of their collective asses all on their own?

Crap -- I'd rather express my displeasure with their "laws", let the world see what's occuring via the media and express their outrage, and give them some incentive to wake the hell up and move, at least, a little quicker. Maybe it's just me though.

WTF?? Oh and she may have knew the law and the punishment for being raped ... but I'll guarantee you that she didn't EXPECT to be raped and therefore didn't really imagine that the "rape law" would be applicable to her. Fuck, somehow your post above makes me think that you believe she could actually have prevented this and got what she deserved or that she "broke the rules to get the law changed." What bullshit. Are you for real?

 

[Reccesoldier]

Quite frankly I'm astonished that there are so many here that are pulling the PC excuse that "It's their culture and their laws". 

BULLSHIT!!!

If something is backwards, barbaric and fundamentally wrong in every sense of human and fundamental rights I would think that it should be the entire worlds duty to expose it for the dark age stupidity and barbarity that it really truly is.

Has our society become so weak kneed that we cant even allow ourselves to distinguish between right and wrong?

I'm not advocating going to war over it but dear god to defend such inhuman cruelty as "cultural" goes against everything that separates us from the animals.

 

[PMedMoe]

Oh and she may have knew the law and the punishment for being raped ...

I think (and correct me via PM if I'm wrong) that ixium meant she knew the laws about associating with an "unrelated" male, which seems to be the reason for her punishment.

Either way, it's morally wrong and these types of people (and those who say "Oh, but it's their law!" need to get out of the Stone Ages.

 

[vonGarvin]

Moral (or ethical) relativism is the tool of the weak-willed to explain away abhorrent behaviour.  In essence, it is racist, because "the brown people don't know any better".  (That is the way they explain it). 

It is wrong.  Full stop.  For those who say otherwise, go *seal your cap badge.


(*delete "seal", and insert french word for "seal", as in the animal)

 

[tomahawk6]

She's lucky if she were living in Iran she would be stoned.

 

[MedTechStudent]

Moral (or ethical) relativism is the tool of the weak-willed to explain away abhorrent behaviour.  In essence, it is racist, because "the brown people don't know any better".  (That is the way they explain it). 

It is wrong.  Full stop.  For those who say otherwise, go *seal your cap badge.


(*delete "seal", and insert french word for "seal", as in the animal)

+1

Not to mention, and this is just an assumption, but I'm sure that terrible violent practises go on every day in some countries and its members and authorities just turn a blind eye to it.  This is just the case that made the NEWS.  Imagine what things go on behind closed doors that we will never hear about.  And yes I think the bottom line is, religion, tradition, and policy aside....wrong is wrong.  And any human being with an ONCE of decency knows that.  I bet it didn't sit well with the judge convicting her, but it's the law right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong.  Doesn't the world have some kind of internation human rights organization to ADDRESS stuff like this?

P.S    The part of this that REALLY bothers me is the "200 lashings" part.  The jail time, I can live with, still wrong but oh well.  But FURTHER physical punishment for that woman is just sick.

 

[tomahawk6]

You have to understand the role of the woman in Islam- she is property with very few rights in a male dominated world. Her future in society is very much in doubt now that her virtue has been lost.

 

[Flip]

But RecceSoldier,

I'm not advocating going to war over it but dear god to defend such inhuman cruelty as "cultural" goes against everything that separates us from the animals.

We are at war over it!
Different country - Different bunch of Sharia advocates.

The UN used to show some promise as a human rights advocate,
but we all know how that works.

The very existence of independent media in the Arab world is the
most positive thing going on.  Public opinion will provide the means for change.
( in time ).

 

[MedTechStudent]

You have to understand the role of the woman in Islam- she is property with very few rights in a male dominated world. Her future in society is very much in doubt now that her virtue has been lost.

Absolutely, and usually, the rest of the world is fine with sitting back and letter countries have these customs and policies towards woman.  Despite how morally wrong they may seam.  I think its just the severity in this instance that is sparking all the outcry.

 

[ixium]

Again, I said that what she was punished for was rediculous.

It got out to the media, they posted it all over then place to try and pressure an overruling. The women appealed after seeing all the support she had gotten. The judge was obviously aware that she was trying to use the media to help her.
That is not how you go about changing laws. One women against a male dominated society backed by media which most aren't even based in her country and are just looking out for their ratings. Come on what did you expect to happen?

 

[MedTechStudent]

Ya I agree with you that it was bound to happen.  But what ELSE could she have done?  Like you said its a male dominated society, who else would listen to her or support besides foreign media?

 

[armyvern]

Again, I said that what she was punished for was rediculous.

It got out to the media, they posted it all over then place to try and pressure an overruling. The women appealed after seeing all the support she had gotten. The judge was obviously aware that she was trying to use the media to help her.
That is not how you go about changing laws. One women against a male dominated society backed by media which most aren't even based in her country and are just looking out for their ratings. Come on what did you expect to happen?

Obviously,

You are a male who was not a gang rape victim ... or sentenced to jail and 200 lashes (or even the original 80!!) based upon your sex & supposed "virtuousness".

You honestly expect her to STFU and NOT try to do something about being punished for someone else's crime?

Her ONLY crime is that she happens to be female. The fact she is a national there means nothing, as a western female would be subject to the same laws in the same circumstances if the same were to happen to her while visiting there.

I do not care what their society is over there, I'm well aware of it BTW, ... it's fucking barbaric and not acceptable ... and I refuse to make any kind of "that's just the way it is" societal excuses & justifications for the males over there who like their laws that way.

I say: "Good for her!!" That denotes that she has bigger balls then the "silent" men in her society who sit back, shut up, and allow shit like this to go on unabated.

At least she's drawn attention to this horror instead of taking what would be your advice of "shutting up and putting up with it ... because that's just the way it is there."

 

[ixium]

I'm sure this isn't the first time that a sentence has been increased from an appeal there.
There are other ways for her to get the message across. Hell, I'm willing to bet that Oprah would have flown there herself just to do an interview.

Going to a judge who is obviously not going to overrule the law was not a smart thing to do. Rallying people up in protest afterwards would have been better.

People there are going to see that the judges are going to be harsh about bring up the subject and will just hide out more.

 

[armyvern]

OMFG,

I can't believe that you just suggested that Oprah would actually have opportunity to interview this victim.

She certainly could fly herself there ... but if you think for an instant that "this" judge or any "other" judge over there would ever allow an interview to take place ... oy yoy yoy.

There is simply NO OTHER way to get the story out from within the confines of the "Justice system" (I use the term very loosely) in a case such as this other than by the media.

Now, I suggest you should heed your own advice for a while ... and be quiet.

There used to be a day in this western nation when it was accepatble and legal for men to beat their wives with sticks (so long as the stick was no bigger round than the man's wrist) ... according to the gospel of ixium ... those women who found themselves beat with those sticks should have just kept quiet and shut up about it -- lest their husband hit them a few more times.

Laws, especially BS like this, change because they get found out and attention is drawn to them (the more attention the better) -- they sure as hell don't change because people suffer in silence.

 

[GAP]

Our courts embrace those same ideals....check this out
It would seem our courts are still treating this shit as though "the poor little dears really didn't mean it"

Ketchup-mustard thug given absolute curfew
By DEAN PRITCHARD, SUN MEDIA November 16, 2007
Article Link

Careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Two Winnipeg men convicted of a degrading sex assault that saw a 13-year-old girl stripped naked and drenched with ketchup and mustard have been sentenced to two years supervised probation.

The men, found guilty following a trial earlier this year, can't be named because they were 16 and 17 at the time of the assaults in 2002.

The Crown had urged Judge Ted Lismer to sentence the now 21- and 23-year-old to as much as nine months in jail.

Lismer, while branding the assaults "reprehensible", sided with the defence, who argued jail sentences weren't required.

The older of the men might be wishing Lismer had sentenced him to jail. As a term of his sentence, Lismer ordered he observe an absolute curfew for two years, effectively imposing a conditional sentence -- a sentence not normally available under the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

Had Lismer gone along with the Crown, the man would likely have served no more than six months in custody.

Lismer said the man's dismal post-arrest conduct required he be treated more harshly than his cohort.

At the time of the assault, the man was serving 18 months probation for a number of property crimes. While on bail for the sex assaults, he was arrested for assault and mischief and sentenced to two years probation.

TAUNTED GIRL

The man was taken into custody earlier this fall after breaching his recognizance by drinking.

Court previously heard the girl had recently moved to Transcona and had few friends but for the younger brother of the then 17-year-old accused.
More on link

 

[PMedMoe]

GAP, at least in this case the girl isn't being punished for being in the wrong place at the wrong time or for violating some archaic law according to culture or religion.

 

[ixium]

You're missing the point ArmyVern. She used media to try and sway the decision of the judge for her appeal. I never said anything about her not saying any. I said she went about it the wrong ways.

What do you realistically expect to happen? Are their laws going to change because some people in Canada or USA said that they were bad? They already look at us as the root of evil, they aren't going to listen to people over here.

 

[armyvern]

You're missing the point ArmyVern. She used media to try and sway the decision of the judge for her appeal. I never said anything about her not saying any. I said she went about it the wrong ways.

What do you realistically expect to happen? Are their laws going to change because some people in Canada or USA said that they were bad? They already look at us as the root of evil, they aren't going to listen to people over here.

No, I believe that you are missing the point. There is no way to go about reversing a decision over there if you happen to be a female rape victim. Period.

So, with no hope of reversing her "conviction", she is left with little else except to raise the alarm bells with the media ... and let the world know about the atrocity that is about to befall her -- an innocent. Good on her!!

China once looked to the west as the root of all things evil too ... yet, they are slowly moving ahead. It's not impossible, but it sure as hell is impossible if all we "westerners" just sit back silently on our collective asses and said nothing was wrong with it -- because that would be akin to condoning it.

No thanks.

:

 

[GAP]

GAP, at least in this case the girl isn't being punished for being in the wrong place at the wrong time or for violating some archaic law according to culture or religion.

If I were in her place I would really have to look at the issue of whether I am being punished for being the victim or not......this kind of treatment and sentence for her offenders is nothing but a slap to her and what happened....what makes it any different, except extremes...