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Scotland Independence Movement

Kirkhill said:
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With respect to currency

Scots banks have a tradition of issuing their own paper money

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http://www.scotbanks.org.uk/legal_position.php

ERC - if you hadn't brought up the subject I would never have learned about this.  It's why I love this site.


That was the case in Canada until circa 1935 ...

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... and it is still the case in e.g. Hong Kong where both the government and selected chartered banks issue notes:

HK401.JPG

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And your point about legal tender is well made.
 
Regardless of who wins tonight, I do hope that it works out for the Scots.  I do pray, however, that if it is the "yes" side, it doesn't get our lot in Que. all fired up once more.  I've heard enough  from that camp to last my lifetime.
 
BBC is predicting a win for the No vote.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29270441
 
MCG said:
BBC is predicting a win for the No vote.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29270441

Over a million voted Yes, though. There should be a few interesting discussions from this point on in Scotland as a result...
 
BBC numbers show 55% "no" to 45% "yes", with district "yes" results in Dundee City, Glasgow, North Lanarkshire and West Dunbartonshire - attached BBC map shows yes in pink, no in green-ish.
 
So, the "Yes" vote was concentrated in a narrow strip running from Inverclyde (1 on the map) to Dundee (15), a largely urban, 'lowland,' and industrial region and, of course, resoundingly anti-Tory in their politics. This is a fair to (almost) good result for the Labour Party, except in Glasgow and Dundee,: it got out the vote and campaigned well but failed to carry Glasgow.

aacouncilareas1996.gif

Key to Council Areas since 1996:
1. Inverclyde
2. Renfrewshire
3. West Dunbartonshire
4. East Dunbartonshire
5. City of Glasgow
6. East Renfrewshire
7. North Lanarkshire
8. Falkirk
9. West Lothian
10. City of Edinburgh
11. Midlothian
12. East Lothian
13. Clackmannanshire
14. Fife
15. City of Dundee
16. Angus
17. Aberdeenshire
18. City of Aberdeen
19. Moray
20. Highland
21. Na h-Eileanan Siar (Western Isles)
22. Argyll & Bute
23. Perth and Kinross
24. Stirling
25. North Ayrshire
26. East Ayrshire
27. South Ayrshire
28. Dumfries & Galloway
29. South Lanarkshire
30. Scottish Borders

Not Shown:
Orkney Islands
Shetland Islands

But look at the vote splits, especially by age:

Bx4zcStCUAEh63i.jpg

Based, I assume, on exit polls
18-24 year olds and those above 55 voted "No." The two 'ends' 16-17 years olds and 65+ don't, really, surprise me, but the 18-24 year old vote does - I rather guessed that the "Yes" vote would be solid up to about age 35 and then the "No" would dominate; that's not quite how it worked.
 
milnews.ca said:
BBC numbers show 55% "no" to 45% "yes", with district "yes" results in Dundee City, Glasgow, North Lanarkshire and West Dunbartonshire - attached BBC map shows yes in pink, no in green-ish.

Ahhh, you will never tame a Highlander, so the English part of Scotland voted to stay English.  It will make for an interesting debate in Scotland, much like our debate in Quebec about those nasty Canadian loving Allphones in Montreal!
 
Actually, if we take Kirkhill's word for it, the current Highlanders voted "No," as did the "Border Scots," and only the urban ex-Highlanders, in that narrow strip South the real highlands, voted "Yes."

Kirkhill said:
...
Just a thought about Tcheuchters and Sassenachs.  To Tcheuchters Sassenachs were anybody from south of the Highland Line (roughly the line south of Stirling.  Lowlanders called the Gaelic speaking Highlanders Tcheuchters.  As far as the British government was concerned all the Highlanders spoke Erse and the Highland Regiments were originally listed on the Irish Establishment.

The Highlanders that didn't leave Scotland during the clearances or the Potato Famine (the same one that hit Ireland) all ended up washing up in Glasgow, in the same tenements as the Irish, doing the same low wage jobs.
...
 
:highjack:  :sorry:

Further to the money discussion (and money, or, at least, thrift is a defining characteristic of the Scots, is it not?), I just saw this about coins (which, especially when issued by a government, are the very definition of legal tender:

http://www.news.gov.hk/en/categories/finance/html/2014/09/20140919_151840.shtml?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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Coin collection plan to start
September 19, 2014
The Monetary Authority will launch a coin collection programme on October 6 with two Coin Carts roaming the city to collect coins from people for the next two years.

At the launch ceremony today, Monetary Authority Chief Executive Norman Chan said the programme provides another channel for people to get value for their coins. Collected coins will be recirculated to reduce the need for minting new ones.

Each Coin Cart, equipped with two coin counting machines, will operate at a location for seven days from 9am to 7pm. They are also fitted with an electric wheelchair lift.

The service is provided free. People can choose to exchange their spare coins for banknotes or add value to their Octopus cards. A Community Chest donation box is also placed inside each vehicle for people to donate.

The carts' exterior design is based on the winning entry of a competition held earlier for secondary school students.

Click here for the coin collection schedule.


The Octopus card is an interesting HK innovation. It started life as a transit fare card but it can now be used as a general purpose cash card. You can use them in, literally, tens of thousands of places. Singapore has a similar, but less all pervasive system. On my way out of HK on my last trip I went to the MTR station at the airport and loaded all my HK cash onto my Octopus card, knowing it's there when I return.
 
Looking at the CBC news in the gym this morning, there seems to be a "wave" of calls for independence referenda across Europe. A partial list would include parts of Spain, Belgum and Venice, but I confess I only caught the tail end of this.

While I'm sure many people are fed up with the mismanagement from the "center", creating smaller nations with fewer resources might not be the best way to go forward, unless your population has the same incentives and work ethic as the people of Hong Kong or Singapore. Sadly, what I am getting out of most of these independence movements is they want to create their *own* bureaucratic welfare state on the tiny foundations of whatever ethnic, linguistic or other sub grouping the independence movement claims to represent.

Unless the "center" is something like Saddam's Iraq or the IS "Caliphate", I suspect that the vast majority of people are better off staying (or in a federated state, moving to whatever part of the nation has the best incentives; i.e. Alberta in Canada)
 
What I am hearing is that the Scottish Referendum has caused many of those independence notions in other European nations to pause for second thought. 

The EU is a novel idea that will go through many years of uncertainty before it really becomes a family of nations and a truly unified Europe.  I think we are all too hard on our expectations of a strong union from the get go, and don't really think of the growing pains Europe has to go through to make it work.  Referendums for separation from any union really need to be well thought out.  Thankfully we in the West have democratic processes in place that allow for peaceful referendums of this sort to take place.  We have come a long way.  Other Regions of the world would prefer to go in the opposite direction.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Actually, if we take Kirkhill's word for it, the current Highlanders voted "No," as did the "Border Scots," and only the urban ex-Highlanders, in that narrow strip South the real highlands, voted "Yes."

I stand by my assessment.  Although every part of Scotland was split with nationalists everywhere the closer you got to Glasgow the more likely it was that that the population were Yes supporters.

Part of the Yes problem though, was summarized by this comment from a Labour supporter in Clackmannanshire: "The nationalists are nothing but Tories in kilts."

That may take a bit of parsing.

Labour in Scotland is full of the spirit of Burns's "A man's a man for a' that......And all the world oer... shall brithers be for a' that."  They are internationalists at heart although they are also Scots.  They don't see a contradiction there. 

Labour agrees on one thing.  They don't like Tories.  Tories are not necessarily English.  They detest Scottish Tories equally.  Tories have variously been Jacobites, Episcopalians, Landowners responsible for the clearances, Mine owners and Shipyard owners.  Not to mention town councillors.  That is to say, anyone with power to constrain them (and charge malting taxes). 

The nationalists have generally been middle to upper class Scots, starting with the Jacobites.

The Tories and Labour agreed on one thing.  The only people that didn't wear breeks were Tcheuchters.  Highlanders were brought down from the north to suppress the honest, God-fearing, witch-burning Covenanters and the lowlanders have never let them forget it.

Even today "respectable" lowlanders buy a Walter Scott kilt to dress up for their wedding and other ceremonials.  Beyond that kilts are seldom worn.

Alex Salmond's strategy was to take over the centre-right nationalists and co-opt them into a left-leaning organization.  This is the strategy of the Party Quebecois and the IRA.

The strategy works as long as you don't ask them what comes the morning after.  All can agree that change can be good.  The problem always remains - what kind of change?

Obama, Salmond and Trudeau skip the messy details (and split their countries down the middle?).  Half the Scots were canny enough to want to know what was on offer before agreeing to change for the sake of change.


One thing I was pleasantly surprised to see - and that was the lack of confrontations.  Well done to the Scots.


And one last point - I wouldn't want to be David Cameron (or Ed Milliband).

The calls are now out for a grand constitutional convention to deal with the governance of the English, Welsh and Ulstermen as well as the Scots.  But that would break up Westminster and turn it into Ottawa.  Labour would lose its strength which is dependent on Scots and Welsh voters.  Westminster could end up as a Tory fiefdom for ever.  One up for David.  But he has to negotiate that at the same time as winning a general election and manage a referundum on the EU while trying to co-opt the UKIP vote.

The next three years could be as momentous for the Brits as the 1685-1689 period - if not as bloody.


 
Hoping to ride the youth vote to a "Yes" victory backfired on Scotlands left.They had changed the voting rules to allow 16 year olds the vote. :o

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/09/17/scotland-independence-teen-vote/15768549/?csp=fbfanpage

LONDON — To misquote a famous British rock group, they are talking and voting about their generation.

Scotland's independence vote Thursday represents the first time voters in the United Kingdom as young as 16 will help decide a significant matter of state: Should Scotland stay in the union or should it go (to misquote another British rock group)?
About 120,000 teens ages 16 and 17 are likely to cast ballots, estimates Graeme West, who helps run Generation Yes, an organization raising awareness for young Scottish voters. In a tight vote, they could change the course of history.
 
Actually, Kirkhill, I was pleasantly surprised, indeed impressed, to see how much detail the "Yes" campaign provided. They had plans, real plans, the sort of detail that not Quebec separatist ever had the courage to enunciate. I suspect, in fact, that all the detail gave the "No" campaign the opening it needed to introduce uncertainty which, in turn, creates fear. (The firm, detailed counter arguments, (and there were some) did, not, it appears to me, persuade the Scots, it was the more vague uncertainties that, I think, were raised, especially in the overseas media, in the last week that first stopped and then reversed the shift to "Yes" which peaked a week to early for that cause.)

I agree with you on two other points: BZ to the Scots for a civil campaign and I, too, do not envy David Cameron or Ed Milliband.

The Next Steps

The unenvied Cameron and Milliband must, now keep their promise and restructure the British Union.

It seems to me that the key is England, not Scotland.

The first, essential step is to recognize that what Scotland wants and what Cameron/Milliband promised is a federation.

The parliament in Westminster needs to:

    1. Create four provinces: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, each to have a capital with a legislature and powers such as one might find in §2 of the Australian Constitution or in §91 and §92 of
        the Canadian Constitution. (Britain, most emphatically, does not need a written constitution, just one Act of the national parliament which defines the divisions of powers and taxation authorities.)

    2. Broker agreements with the four provinces regarding how they may want to share some of their powers, i.e. through a super-provincial or sub-national agency to manage e.g. the National Health
        ~ which does not need to be a national responsibility, unlike say tariffs, monetary policy and defence.

Thus, we they end up with five legislatures: a national parliament in Westminster and four provincial or state legislatures/assemblies/parliaments in England/Capital TBD, Northern Ireland/Stormont, Scotland/Edinburgh and Wales/Cardiff.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
England/Capital TBD

Winchester?  Some historical precedent.  (Capital before London.)

If this significant reformulation of the United Kingdom to a federalist state occurs, it is interesting to compare the change wrought by one peaceful referendum in Scotland, as opposed to decades of violence in Northern Ireland.
 
Point taken on the SNP detailing contrasting to the PQ but I would still argue that there were many holes left in the platform that could be (and were) exploited by the Unionist side.

But that I consider a minor quibble now. (Which is to say that you are right but I'm buggered if I will admit it  ;) ).

With respect to the federalization of the union:  a couple of additional complicating factors enter into the equation.

The North of England, strongly of the opinion that there was never a man born south of The Wash, has as little love for the Home Counties as the Scots (whom they equally and cordially detest as sheep-shaggers).  There has already been some press speculation about whether Derby or York should be the North's capital with the edge going to the Viking city of York.

Privateer - Winchester might be the choice for the South of The Wash regional capital but it was never York's capital.

As well there are rumours of the Cornish wanting special treatment.

Finally there is this from Nick Clegg:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/11/nick-clegg-devolution-scotland-referendum-wales-england

Nick Clegg has said that "the cat is out of the bag" on devolution in the UK, predicting that the issue will dominate British politics whatever the result of Scotland's independence referendum. The deputy prime minister promised to be "on the picket lines" calling for greater decentralisation in England as he insisted that irreversible further powers would be handed to Scotland even after a no vote.

Clegg is due to give a major speech on the topic on Friday when he helps launch a report on decentralisation in England prepared by the centre-left thinktank the Institute for Public Policy Research.

The report sets out a 10-year timetable by which powers can be devolved to English cities and regions.

The plan identifies 40 different functions of government which need to be devolved and covers powers and budgets held in 13 different Whitehall departments.


The report argues for fiscal devolution to be a central plank of the 2015 Comprehensive Spending Review, with five-year funding settlements agreed and an independent body established to take forward further central-local funding reforms. It argues ultimately for property taxes and business rates to be devolved to combined authorities and, eventually, a proportion of income tax to be assigned to them.

I sense a "Canadian" discussion coming - Should Toronto and Calgary get tax room and who should they get it from.... the Feds or the Provinces?  Westminster or Edinburgh?
 
Privateer said:
Winchester?  Some historical precedent.  (Capital before London.)

If this significant reformulation of the United Kingdom to a federalist state occurs, it is interesting to compare the change wrought by one peaceful referendum in Scotland, as opposed to decades of violence in Northern Ireland.


Damned good point; very perceptive.
 
Kirkhill said:
...
I sense a "Canadian" discussion coming - Should Toronto and Calgary get tax room and who should they get it from.... the Feds or the Provinces?  Westminster or Edinburgh?


Someone said that the most horrifying thought for the day is: millions and millions of unfortunate Brits having to Google 'Meech Lake Accords' and 'Charlottetown Agreement' in order to understand the path to constitutional paralysis.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Damned good point; very perceptive.

Agreed.  Apologies for the delayed acknowledgement Privateer.
 
Privateer said:
Winchester?  Some historical precedent.  (Capital before London.)

If this significant reformulation of the United Kingdom to a federalist state occurs, it is interesting to compare the change wrought by one peaceful referendum in Scotland, as opposed to decades of violence in Northern Ireland.

Its in the memories. The troubles in Northern Ireland started in the early '60's. Prior to that the last time the Irish-Brits had gone it was in 1920's; in other words in living memory. Heck, there were people who had fought in the Irish Rebellion against the British who were still alive in the '60's!

On the other hand, the last time the Scots and British duked it out was at Culloden in 1746. Ancient history.
 
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