Second Language Training ( SLT )

[aesop081]

Lets be honest, the only place in Canada that an anglo REALLY needs to know French is Quebec, thats it. However, looking at where many of today's conflicts are (Middle East) would knowing Arabic, Farsi, maybye even some Oriental languages be more benficial to the CF then having everyone know French?

Maybye we should require bilingualism in that you speak English and another language (not necessarily French). This would give us a broader range of language skills and would motivate people in that they get a list of languages to choose from.

I think that you are missing the point.  I do agree that having other languages in the CF would be very beneficial, french and english alone are the working languages here at home.  I think that i demonstrated a good example earlier in this thread that speaking both english and french is not just for those of us in quebec. I was translating all orders and information from higher ups to the troops as i was the only buligual member of my troop. On my first tour in croatia, we were replaced by the R22R, and speaking french made the handover a bit moe bearable for everybody.  When we deployed for the ice storms in 97, i was driving all the big wigs around bacause i could translate for them when meeting with mayors, ministers and the like.

 

[Infanteer]

Lets be honest, the only place in Canada that an anglo REALLY needs to know French is Quebec, thats it. However, looking at where many of today's conflicts are (Middle East) would knowing Arabic, Farsi, maybye even some Oriental languages be more benficial to the CF then having everyone know French?

Maybye we should require bilingualism in that you speak English and another language (not necessarily French). This would give us a broader range of language skills and would motivate people in that they get a list of languages to choose from.

You didn't get it the first time, so perhaps I can help.   Senior Officers (which the CANFORGEN affects) need to be bilingual in both of Canada's Official Languages (the ones mentioned in the Constitution) because they will most likely command units that legally use either language in the execution of their duties.

 

[GINge!]

Uhh... WHAT ?? What good is a degree in an operational situation ? Is it more useful than being able to communicate with everybody on your team ?? Senior Leaders find themselves working more and more in "mixed and matched" outfits during ops, and you can't see the benefits of bilingualism ??
Maybe you should look for a degree in Common Sense !!   :

I knew the word 'degree' would throw someone for a loop.

When you undergo higher education, it encourages critical thinking - not just remembering things like how pyridostigmine bromide bonds with acetylcholine-esterase, but how to analyze a situation and develop solutions. Higher education is but one way of developing this skill, and though my degree was not in common sense, I have still managed to use throughout my career, every day, both on operations and in garrison.

Its not that I don't see the benefits of bilingualism, I am however questioning the importance we place on it.

The Army paid a lot of money for me to go from a unilingual 9-9-9 to my last profile of E-C-C. In 18 years, I have used it for 2 weeks during a 5e GBMC FTX and the odd expletive. C'est tout. In my opinion, the hundreds of hours spent learning this skill would have been better applied to something more relevant.

MTCW.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
The Army paid a lot of money for me to go from a unilingual 9-9-9 to my last profile of E-C-C. In 18 years, I have used it for 2 weeks during a 5e GBMC FTX and the odd expletive. C'est tout. In my opinion, the hundreds of hours spent learning this skill would have been better applied to something more relevant.

...so because you have never bothered to push yourself, that made it useless to all...........and what more relevant thing would you require?
Another nice frame on your wall?

....there are examples here of those who have used it, I have used it....maybe you should try a little harder?

 

[Pieman]

Does one really have to be fully bilingual to issue orders? Does it really matter of Lt. A can speak French/English better than Lt. B, when both of them can for example say "Go pick up that shovel and dig a trench" in both languages?

there are examples here of those who have used it, I have used it....maybe you should try a little harder?

If one has to find excuses to use a skill, then is that high of a skill level really necessary?

I studied German in school and later learned Dutch. I will be taking French after BOTC, and I am looking forward to having the chance to learn.  I hope the training is sufficient. I am quite sure that most people will be at an advantage compared to me as they probably did some french though grade school. I would hate to see that progression in my career is hindered because I took the time and effort to learn other languages besides French.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
If one has to find excuses to use a skill, then is that high of a skill level really necessary?


...and you have done a lot of astrophysics since St. Marys?

 

[Pieman]

Yes actually I have. I have taken contracts from a couple astrophysical research centers. On top of that, I don't have to find excuses to use these skills. Astrophysics is simply physics as applied to space. I use physics every day, applied to a variety of situations.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...as I use French every day in my life................like I said ,just another qualification, albeit a useful one.

 

[Pieman]

I am not questioning the usefulness of knowing French or any other second language. Knowing other languages is a door to a variety of opportunities, for sure. You may use it every day in central Canada, but many people here in Alberta tell me it is hard to find the chance to speak French, and many end up loosing their French skill over time. (You snooze it, you lose it)

The point I was trying to make with regards to the weighting of the second language in the promotion scoring. Is it necessary to have such a high weighting for a skill that does not really require fluent or 'bilingual' skill level?

Wouldn't it make more sense if a sufficient condition for promotion be a certain skill level of the second language? Such that the Officer is able to communicate to the troops. Then more time can be spent on gaining other skills for their role in the Army.

Does it really matter if one Officer is totally fluent and another only sufficiently fluent when they can both communicate?

I am not in the Army, so I don't know the amount of French I will really need to speak. Perhaps I am underestimating the importance of it. If I am, please enlighten me.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from George Wallace,
There are scores for compentency in the 'Official' Second Language abilities of those being merit listed.  The scores are not that much, but may be the tie breaker in deciding promotions and course loading at the Merit Boards in Ottawa.

....and like I said before, there should be points for any language, far more than the "arts or poli sci" papers hanging on the wall.
Good leaders will still be good leaders.......actuellement, on a deja parlez de cette sujet dans un autre "thread".

 

[Pieman]

If it is true that "scores are not that much", then they certainly seem to be doing a lot of ice breaking. Some statistics Toryln pulled up for me not too long ago:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27189.0.html

The best I got was the language that was put down as "first official" on application, and that's 28% french, and 72% english.  (The CDN ratio is 24-76, so not too far off.  HOWEVER, according to the DND, "Representation of Francophones and Anglophones in the CF has changed little during the past 10 years, however, the proportion of French-speaking members at senior rank levels has nearly doubled in the same period".  This was written in 1996, leaving us two conclusions.  One, francophone officers are more capable than their english-speaking counterpoints, or they get promoted more because of their abilities in both languages.

So is that the wrong conclusion to draw from the statistics? Is there another factor besides language that would cause francophone Officers to be promoted more frequently?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
Representation of Francophones and Anglophones in the CF has changed little during the past 10 years, however, the proportion of French-speaking members at senior rank levels has nearly doubled in the same period



Francophone or French-speaking?      ........  Big difference, my friend.

 

[Pieman]

Ah! Very good Bruce. The discrepancy between the numbers what what people were saying was bothering me for quite some time. That clears it up and makes sense now. So it would appear my fears about having trouble with promotion vs. second language skill are unfounded.

That's what I get for listening to a bunch of old legion members with too much beer in them

 

[Infanteer]

Should it be?  I mean a Canadian who speaks French is a Canadian who speaks French, is it not?

Another question - if I move to Quebec, do I get to be a Quebecois?

Not trying to argue with anyone, only I just think we (as Canadians) may place a little too much emphasis on where someone was born - I, like many others, am not "English" (although it was my first language) or "French" in the traditional sense; does this make me any less of a Canadian?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

What????  Have you been drinking again?

That was never implied at all, I am an Anglophone, my mother tongue. You are also an Anglophone by this"(although it was my first language)"....no less or more a Canadian. I'm failing to see how you think your linguistic shortcomings make you any less "Canadian" or if anyone implied that.

 

[Infanteer]

No, no Bruce, I wasn't targeting what you said, I was only putting my thoughts on how we relate Language and being Canadian.

If I was born in BC and was raised in a French household, would I be a Francophone or a French Speaking Canadian?   Is there something about the mythical line that surrounds the Belle Province that changes someone's status based upon what their mother tongue is?

Take the Quebec Language Law.   Say I was a French Speaking Family from B.C. who moved to Quebec and I wanted to put my kid in English Immersion.   Would I be classified as a Francophone and thus require cultural protection (and thus limited to a French school) because French is the household tongue, even if I had no heritage in the St Lawrence River Valley?

If Canadians are boxed into "Anglophone" or "Francophone" descriptions, then what are they if they were raised in a Korean or a Polish household?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
If I was born in BC and was raised in a French household, would I be a Francophone or a French Speaking Canadian?

...Francophone, we speak French in the house[mostly] so even though my family background is about as "English" as it gets[Monkhouse?] I consider my kids to be Francophones.

Quote,
If Canadians are boxed into "Anglophone" or "Francophone" descriptions, then what are they if they were raised in a Korean or a Polish household?

...if someone needed to "box" someone in, then I would say the first "official" language that they learn.

Bottom line to me is "Canadian".

 

[aesop081]

If Canadians are boxed into "Anglophone" or "Francophone" descriptions, then what are they if they were raised in a Korean or a Polish household?

Lucky to be here just like the rest of us  ;D

I'm just curious, alot of people replying to this thread speak multiple kanguages as it is, why is there such animosity against learning french as well ?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
Take the Quebec Language Law.  Say I was a French Speaking Family from B.C. who moved to Quebec and I wanted to put my kid in English Immersion.  Would I be classified as a Francophone and thus require cultural protection (and thus limited to a French school) because French is the household tongue, even if I had no heritage in the St Lawrence River Valley?


Sorry, forgot this,[shift change, want to go home and log on ;D],   don't get me started on the Quebec language law, even though I understand trying to save your culture, it should not be at the expense of peoples rights and freedoms.

...and I've said it before, do not confuse what the govt. does to what the people want, if you disagree with that then by the same anology you would approve of funneling taxpayers money into a political party. :-[

 

[Infanteer]

...Francophone, we speak French in the house[mostly] so even though my family background is about as "English" as it gets[Monkhouse?] I consider my kids to be Francophones.

Is French their first language?  Even if it was, is their a difference between the Monkhouse household and the Bouchard household in Quebec (I would argue that the PQ would say so)?

I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the differences between Francophone and French-Speaking. Quebecois and Resident of the Province of Quebec and how these definitions pertain to the Law in Canada - the definitions seem to be important (for some reason).

Bottom line to me is "Canadian".

Me too, as you can see I'm just having trouble figuring out what that is right now.... ;D

I'm just curious, alot of people replying to this thread speak multiple kanguages as it is, why is there such animosity against learning french as well ?

I don't think it's animosity at the French language per se, but rather the animosity is directed towards the either/or mentality the bilingualism has created.   Sure, French speaking Canadians are now more capable of taking part in the public sphere, but we've created a social box where a Canadian can put themselves in the either/or catagory and basically not have to communicate with others (in essence, this is why the CANFORGEN seems like a good idea, it forces us to better ourselves as Canadian citizens - I feel that all soldiers should go to SLT).   English speaking Canadians who can't talk to French speaking Canadians are just as much of a problem as the reverse situation.

The way I see it, there are two alternatives:

1.   Perhaps Canada would be better served by a "Common Tongue" in which all Canadians would learn (as opposed to their "mother tongue" which they speak in the house).   As it stands, English seems to be the candidate for obvious reasons that most of Canada will have it as a primary tongue and Francophones will learn it anyways - but we can use Latin or Cantonese for all I care.   What I'm reaching for is the principle that a country should be able to understand eachother, regardless of the situation; I'm not yanking on any historical arguments (who was here first, who is important politically, yadayadayada).   People are free to use what they want in private lives, but all Canadians from whatever background (Cree, Quebecois, Danish, Chinese, Iranian) will be drawn together by a single common and united feature.

2.   On the flipside, if going with one tongue is too divisive, then I fully support Bilingualism in all schools (English to the French, French to the English) - as we will no longer have to worry about printing forms in both languages, having French/English military units, or signage; any Canadian should be able to pick either up and figure it out.   Every Canadian, regardless of heritage, should be able to speak both English and French.   Sure, some may argue that they have no need to learn it in Alberta, but perhaps something like this would do wonders in getting the French language out of Fortress Quebec and into mainstream Canadian (meaning across Canada) culture where it should be if we are to be a truely bilingual nation.

As for what people want to speak in their household, I don't care - they can learn Klingon for all I care.   But I want all Canadians to be able to deal with eachother when they leave the house.   Hey, perhaps Klingon is the logical choice for a "Common Tongue" - no political baggage.... :dontpanic:

Sorry, forgot this,[shift change, want to go home and log on ;D],   don't get me started on the Quebec language law, even though I understand trying to save your culture, it should not be at the expense of peoples rights and freedoms.

Agree.

Straitjacketing citizens to "protect culture" doesn't seem too constructive.   Culture adapts and evolves and if Canada (any part) looks different then it did in the 17th century, well, things change.   Saying that a Francophone (including Mr Monkhouse   ) needs a heavy-handed legislation to protect their culture is a smack in the face of the average joe who lives his private life how he chooses.

...and I've said it before, do not confuse what the govt. does to what the people want, if you disagree with that then by the same anology you would approve of funneling taxpayers money into a political party. :-[

???