Senate Committee Report Excerpt: "Creating Real Reserves"

[Jed]

Dapaterson I entirely agree with you but it is probably my Reg F bias coming out.

Mud Recce Man I definately see your points as well. There are many good roles for Res F to fill, provided the training is complete ie: CIMIC and PSYOPS.

I do not want to sidetrack this but, I personally do not agree with the Res F filling a role like CIMIC and PSYOPS at 100%. Maybe a 90 - 10 split would be better. If we are to be Total Force how can you effectively take an entire capability out of the total mix? Reg F and the Res F have to work together whatever the final orbat of the Res F winds up being. Currently, CIMIC and PSYOPS do not integrate well with the whole CF individual and collective training experience. Many Reg F pers do not know how to use these assets properly and many Res F do not know how to work within a combined arms setting in combat operations.

We are currently in combat cperations in Afghanistan were the campaign can not be won with only the application of kinetic force. Killing 1000,s of taliban will do no one any good unless we win or gain moral ground using the PRT assets and capabilities. The outcome will only be won with the application of non kinetic assets through the PRTs.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

We will be kicking this kind of thing around for ever and not everyone will agree, ever.
How about this, we train the reserves on all the basic soldiering skills to give a solid foundation.  Then, when needs are identified, they fill a spot and get the mission specific training during the work up that the whole Task Force goes through anyway.  Of course they have to go through the trade training but with all of the basic soldiering skills required (including advanced first aid, patrolling, force security, FIBUA, weapons handling, etc) there is more then enough things to train in the 37.5 days allotted for the average reservist.  Since we will not be deployed on formed sub-units but only as individuals, why not concentrate on solid training to give a solid foundation to build on?

This sounds alot like what then CLS Gen Hillier said to "us" in his brief to 36 CBG before he took over as CDS.

His words?

"We, the Reg Frce, need you in the years to come to fulfill our tasks that our Government will set upon us".

Let's get over the delta between the Reg and Res force.  There is one.  We accept it as Res guys.  You fear it as the Reg guys that may end up deployed with us, cause you want the best beside you.  We can be that.  With the training and help of our Reg Frce brothers and sisters that know more than us.

The Senate Commitee Report is NOT going to solve the issue being hammered on here.

Maybe some will help, job protection, etc.

But after reading thru this, the issue isn't that.

Its whether or not "we" can do the job.  I get that.  We can relate.

We are trained to a certain extent.  As much as "the system" allows.  Guys, we know that.  We are in the Res, we know we aren't trained to the standard you are.  We don't eat/live/breath together the way you do.  We can't.  We aren't 24/7.

BUT...but...

We can fit in and do the job.  Give us the trng, the benefit of YOUR experience.  We will listen.  Sponges.  Fill us up.  

Christ, we did it before.  How many Battle Honours do we have in the Res Frce units?  Not perfect, but willing.

We are all the same.  As good as our training...our leadership...and our committment.  Its not the uniform or the cap badge after all...its the man or woman wearing it.

And the training we give them.

Oh, I hear the Mod's saying "sum up MRM!"

Last point...

We're all on the same team...lets fight the enemy.  Not ourselves.

 

[skydiver]

Another Recce Guy..
Interesting idea about making a "tour" a prerequisite to promotion. Would that apply to Reg Force too? What about non Cbt Arms?

Methinks your suggestion might open up several cans of worms.

Another prob..all reservists are not deployable because their trade specs are not equivelant to the Reg F (not their fault..the Army made the choices).
Kinda hard for a Reserve Cpl to get a task as a Coyote gunner when he has never been in one and never will be. Or a Reserve Weapons Tech or Veh Tech to get a slot with a Tank Sqn Echelon or Recce Sqn since he isn't qualified on the kit. And of course when we are talking about soldiers other than maybe Infantry, the numbers of Reg Force in certain orgs is low enough on each roto that there is no way that unit is going to leave soldiers back to make way for a Reservist. I am talking Armoured Corps here. As I look at the CFTPO I see lots of generic jobs and Infantry jobs. Not so in al ot of other trade specific areas.

Keep on keepin on
Doog

 

[PhilB]

A lot of good points being brought forward in this thread. I have several points, being a reservist who just came back from 1-06 in a reserve org. Training wise the difference, at least tecnically between res light inf and reg inf is minimal. There are not many specialized skills that res is lacking. Proficiancy and experience yes but the the basic knowledge no. Mech is a whole different story.

I think that deploying reserves in reserve organizations is a flawed concept. From my experience the troops suffer for the lack of experience of their leaders. I think reserves augmenting on an individual basis and quite successful even in the challenging theater of afghanistan.

A common misconception in my opinion is "having a tour". It seems that in the reserves as long as you have a tour, any tour, you are considered relativly proficient. I completely disagree. How many Senior NCO's and officers went on their tours as pte many many years ago. How many of those tours were Cyprus, later Bosnia roto's, the golan? Not to talk down someones acheivments in other theaters and operations but there is a huge difference between a cyprus tour and a current afghanistan roto. Senior NCO's in the reserves in most cases are not experienced enough in modern tactics, and equipment to effectivly lead soldiers on operation.

Sorry if this is somewhat rambling, I just rolled out of bed.

 

[KevinB]

Whats wrong with Cyprus  ;D - Fuck my liver will never be the same...

They cancelled my GF's ex this w/e since they had 6 troops (and a shit load of officers - Res Med unit)
 
I'd say they need to make functional units that can train -- maybe not be deployed as a unit -- but have the ability to be deployed as one...

Right now I'd say 75% of Class A MWO and Maj positions are oxygen theifs -- and 99.9% of CWO and LCOL (and above) res positions...



Secondly before people think I am res bashing - my old roomate CT'd as a Sgt to the reg's -- he was quite able to fill the role of a 031 Reg Sgt (though they intially made him a Cpl -- he was qual'd to be a reg Sgt)

 

[John Nayduk]

skydiver:
Since this thread is about the reserves, that's where my points are aimed.  A tour in the regular force is almost a given these days.  There are so many jobs that need to be done "over there" that even non-combat arms people should be able to go.  Currently we have 5 over there right now, two are involved with CIMIC, one is a staff officer, one work in an CQMS shop and one is with J3.  None of them have anything to do with R011 but they are getting some benefit from being overseas.  There is a lot to learn being on an operation in an active theater. 
PhilB:  Right you are about "having a tour", not all are big shows but having someone go through the operational deployment training and experience is better than having someone in a senior leadership position that has only been on course and summer concentrations.  I agree that you are not proficient because you had a tour, you are more experienced because you had a tour.  You get more proficient with training and it should never stop just because you get promoted.  This is why I advocate training in good solid soldier skills along with the trade training in what ever trade you are in.  In my case, I'm in a reserve RECCE unit.  We should be able to fill 37.5 training days with lots of good solid training (we're not but that's another issue/rant). It will take imagination and planning but it can be done.  If you dived up an evening parade into say three classes, you should be able to fit in basic soldier skills and a class on trade training.  No one says you have to cover every aspect of RAPZ in one evening but you could take a class and teach/review lateral drills, road block drills, etc.  When the weekend FTX comes along, put the soldier skills and the trade stuff together as a "confirmation".  Then cover something else and confirm it at the next FTX.  When the unit gets to the summer FTX, they have trained everything that they  need to cover the focus of the exercise.  Next year, keep up the soldier skills and move onto the next phase of the three block war or what is mandated by higher as the focus of the next summer concentration.  Keep the training challenging and operationally focused.
Since the reserves are not going away, let's keep discussing how to make us more useful to the army and the country, and yes, I know that these ideas will be discussed here and eventually die here but it's therapeutic.  ;D

 

[54/102 CEF]

A while back I looked at the deployment times of major activities from Boer War up to 1948 and the re-deployment to Europe.

From the time it came on the scene as a political issue in Ottawa to the time the troops sail its usually about 6 months.

Now that's not to say its 6 months until the troops meet the other side - its even longer.

This supports idea of the long work up trg and not deploying more than we have in the past which looks like about 25% of  the regular field troops who will go toe to toe with the Ruskies et al.

Where the entire rear link falls absolutely flat in my mind - is what if 2 Afghanistans open up? And certain NATO forces don't kick in......... the real answer may be its always political but by word, deed and body language I don't see us even acknowledging that could happen.

A business as usual attitude is a dangerous attitude.

 

[AJC]

Interesting comments and some of the same old comments.
But I bit the end of my tongue off, must  comment:
- Job protection is not as important to those in the militia as some would have us think. This spectre gets raised, in my opinion, by those that wouldn't go anyways. If it came to be, great. Those that want to go overseas will go whether or not their job is there when they get back.
- The number of old senior NCO's and officers from the old days where the mess was a training venue, are few and far between. There are a few of them left but not many. Having said that, according to a couple of posts here, I am one and just didn't realize it. Most NCO's (excluding Reg F transfers) I know in the reserve units have tours. Out of 19 Sr NCO's in KOCR, 16 have tours, and the total is 23. Yes some of them are old, but any overseas deployment is good experience. The reality is that once you get promoted to Sgt the likelihood of being deployed drops dramatically. Not that the volunteers don't exist, but the posns don't. 

The issues are:
1. There is not a realistic expectation, mission statement, aim, objective for a reserve unit. There has to be defined mission, a defined organization to fill out and the resources to meet them if it wants to work. That's complicated and expensive so the status quo will stay around.
2. 37.5 days a year is not enough, and never has been the way we do things. Allthough the National Guard has its issues, they can crew tanks on their reserve time. I don't think they are that much smarter than us, having equipment around on which to gain experience just might be the answer.
3. The Reg F is the standing army and every effort should be made to fund it up to strength and fill it up. The militia should be not normally be relied on for formed units, that's called mobilization. Using augmentees from the militia is a huge benefit to the units. Their experience brought back can be used to help train those around them. The arguement that we "lose too many to the Reg F" is BS as that is part of our function.
4. The experience, or lack of it, issues that are evident with us militia senior NCO's are directly related to two things, neither of which are our fault. Funding, which we all know has been inadequate since time began, and a lack of sufficient current equipment big and small. If you want or expect a Sr NCO that can do the job fairly well, you first train him and then you provide him with meaningful practice. That practice involves men and equipment. The same equipment as the Reg F. Start buying equipment or quit bitching. Those that can't or won't do it can be fired.
5. LFRR can not come quick enough. I love history and know all the battalion names and who did what in the war, but its time for some reality. The model  that the British TA has adopted has merit. Res Svc Bn's provide little or no service, the Inf is neither "Light" (specialized) nor mechanized, Light Recce in a pick up or even a G-Wagon is not Light Recce. 3 trucks and 20 guys does not a Sqn make.
6. I knew 2 NCO's that quit due to first gulf war because they we're scared to be called up in case the whole army got involved. Both of them were sh&%pumps anyways. I haven't seen anyone quit due to Iraq / Afghan. One of the reasons that the militia can't fill all posn's allocated to CRIC's and WATC is that, there isn't very many of us around. The economy is good, you have to make it worth someones while for them to get/stay involved.

Solution
1. BFT all reservists. Bring back testing and competitions. Bring back marksmanship. Trade courses on the current corps equipment (this can still be done in blocks) CMTC validations. Bring back Milcons (at CMTC)
2. LFRR - Make a Bn a Bn and a Coy a Coy. Amalgamate, tactically group or whatever, do something.
3. Fund the system for IT, Collective Trg and procure enough equipment to go around. Ammunition vice "Bang, Bang," he said sharply to the enemy. Real training with real equipment and ammunition will aid retention more than anything else.
4. Make it financially or some how beneficial for: a) a reservist to join up; b) an NCO to stay in and be fit / deployable; and c) Reg F mbrs to transfer over to PRes when they leave RegF. Full medical / dental for PRes after initial engagement. Yes, contracts and signing bonuses.

Another hour well spent.

 

[skydiver]

Greetings AJC and all..
I am one of those old buggers. I just passed my 36 TOS day.
Was around for the FLQ thing. Did 2 Fall Exs during the good ol Cold War, was on Op Salon in Quebec and some did some other NATO and ABCA stuff. But no gongs. No "been shot at" stories.
Perhaps the Germany stuff has been a help. I think it was. Now I am a staff weenie on full time service and I know I couldn't do a troop WOs thing on an Op. I am not up on the equipment, the tactics or the vehicles. I could work at the "higher" no problem cuz that is what I do.
But I ramble..
I agree with most of what you say but I am in Atlantic Canada and we have had ARCONs/MILCONs forever. Next year it is shit canned. The fact is it cuts into Indiv Trg too much. Yeah I know, ya gotta do the Collective/Combined Arms stuff. But the courses are too damned compressed to make way for the exercise at the end of the summer.
There have been a lot of ideas bounced around down here lately about which we need more of right now.
One thing that most agree with is that units actually get better turn outs for their sexy out-of country stuff (and sexy in country stuff too) than for ARCON. 36 CBG goes to Fort Pickett VA every year. 8CH and PEIR had some pretty good trips to Fort Knox etc. The Newfs have done the Pickett thing too. Great facilities and no snow.
The ARCON Ex in late August gets a lot new soldiers who were trained that summer but then again a lot want the week off before going back to school (can't blame them). There is always a bunch of the old hands to run the thing but the fact is, it is not that easy for a lot of people to get off that time of year. When units do a big away trip it is usually in March. They have had the whole trg year to get ready and to make preps. Lots of available students and the working guys can usually swing a week in March. So why not take the collective trg $$ and give them to the COs. Then just say to them "run an exercise, alone or in conjunction other units when it works best for your soldiers".
As for the equipment..well that is definitely the thing is really screwing the Res part of the Corps. When we were cougar mounted we were relevant (sort of). Once the Reg F dropped them, we had lots to train on but we were becoming a dinasaur mounted org. Now...G-Wagen?
If the Army wants to be LAVIII mounted then give us LAVs. If they want to be NYALA based, fine. Give us NYALAs. Hell, give us horses, but gives us enough.

Slow night.
Doog

 

[ArmyRick]

As a link in the training chain of infantry soldiers I agree with binning MILCON/guardian/what ever it is called. I have too often seen quality training sacrificed for quanity. I beleive the reserve training cycle should go as such
Summer block = Career development/staffing courses and task
Fall block = Unit DLOC training (Individual skills up to section)
Winter block = Winter warfare skills and platoon operations
Spring block = platoon and company level exercises (the unit has been training together for several months now).

I would also suggest running the end of summer event for those not participating in career or staff training that summer.  It would be a lower key exercise than what people try and make it these days. I would also keep march break exercise alive for those availible.

Reserve battle group or brigade level exercises IMO is not worth the trouble.

One of the WORST expiriences I have had in the past was at Stalwart Guardian 2004 in Petawawa. There was such a cram job to get numbers that people didn't seem to care. I was given a section of soldiers of wich only 3 of us were QL3/dp1 infantry qualified. The other 6 guys were only reserve SQ qualified. They barely knew how to do section attacks and recce patrols. I told my platoon commander (an arrogant arse fresh off officer training who knew d*ck) and I was told "make it work, sergeant". A good cop out at best.

Keep in mind this ex had little time for battle procedure let alone time to teach guys how to do fighting patrols, urban operations and other operations better suited for QUALIFIED infantry troops with expirience. The troops were confused and trying to drink from the fire hose so to speak. It was too much for my new troopies. But hey the rush to get bodies out on ex was all important.

Good thing, Bravo Company, 1 RCR threw a good urban combat scenario (for those who more expirienced).

 

[PPCLI Guy]

. I told my platoon commander (an arrogant arse fresh off officer training who knew d*ck) and I was told "make it work, sergeant". A good cop out at best.

Or perhaps the young lad was mistaken in his believe that sometimes, you have to make it work, and the one guy that probably can is his Sgt.

You sure showed him, huh?

:brickwall:

 

[charlesm]

Actually, I find that the reserves are their own worst enemies. We have a lot of smart people in different positions, but we also have the Old boys club, that tell the politicians that in my day we did this or we did that or we had this many troops on an Ex.

As for having a reserve force like the National Guard or American Reserves, I can't see it happening. We would have to boost the Reg first before we could even think about anything else. Also since the reserves are not getting the same Kit as the Reg's we don't train too the same level.

My suggestion for the Infantry is that the reserves are for Mobilization and footprint in the community (Like apple pie and Motherhood), but the real reason is to support the Regs. To do this I would suggest for Example, that Delta Coy in 3PPCLI would now be a reserve COY that would be flushed out by all of LFWA Inf Reserve Units. When a reservist goes there it would be on a 1-3 year class "C" contract. They would train with the battalion. Also when 3PPCLI runs PCF courses there would be extra money to send other reservists on these courses. In the summer they maybe tasked to help at WATC if there isn't battalion training going on. The reason I picked the 3PPCLI is because it is a LIB. We could pick 2 PPCLI, but how long do LAV gunners and Drivers stay in their position before they move up or out?

Also when a tour comes up this reserve Coy that has trained together could go as a formed sub-sub-unit. Reserve Capt, Maj and SNR NCO's could get very valuable experience doing this.

But the other important thing is that when the Reg no longer want to do things Full-time and want a different career, there should be some sort of bonus for joining the reserves. IE you serve with a reserve unit for a year and get $2,500 or so. Serve another 2 years get another $5,000. This way the reserves get better trained and more experienced people in.

My 2 cents worth

 

[Haggis]

Or perhaps the young lad was mistaken in his believe that sometimes, you have to make it work, and the one guy that probably can is his Sgt.

You sure showed him, huh?

:brickwall:

;D

One of the WORST expiriences I have had in the past was at Stalwart Guardian 2004 in Petawawa.

I was there, too.

Keep in mind this ex had little time for battle procedure let alone time to teach guys how to do fighting patrols, urban operations and other operations better suited for QUALIFIED infantry troops with expirience. The troops were confused and trying to drink from the fire hose so to speak. It was too much for my new troopies. But hey the rush to get bodies out on ex was all important.

Yes, people freaked about douing three "ops" in six days.  "Too much!!" they screamed.  But when the time came to do Battle Procedure, there was a lot of sitting around bitching about "the pace" at the expense of BP.  Were lessons learned?  Yep!!.  Some good.  Some bad.  But lessons WERE learned.

T'weren't that bad, IMO.

Good thing, Bravo Company, 1 RCR threw a good urban combat scenario (for those who more expirienced).

Charles Coy IIRC.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

One of the WORST expiriences I have had in the past was at Stalwart Guardian 2004 in Petawawa.

;DI was there, too.

Hey!  So was I!!!  Who was the clown in charge of that ex, anyway?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Hey!  So was I!!!  Who was the clown in charge of that ex, anyway?

Do I detect some irony here? 

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Do I detect some irony here? 

Me?  Sarcastic?  Never.  :

 

[Haggis]

Hey!  So was I!!!  Who was the clown in charge of that ex, anyway?

Some big redheaded guy who has a habit of punching me in the shoulder when I'm not looking.  Seems I remember him as a "outside the box" kinda guy, in several ways.

Hey, how's your hand??