Seventy

[bilton090]

Another example of people who don't understand what is going on in the world.

Brilliant article, well done.

     + 1 GreyMatter, +100 on the article
                    Flanker what have you done to be the expert on this subject ?
                     These people are Islamic extremists, its sad to say there Islamic, but they are !
                   The only threats we have today and the world are from ISLAMIC extremists. 

            I didn't know that there was Jehovah's Witnesses in the cells.   

 

[Flanker]

To all responded above.
I do not like as the article autor jumps right on the religion.
That is a right way to holy wars of christians vs muslims. Do you really want it?

Do you really want a bloody religion war? Or you want to fight extremists?
Considering muslims your ennemies just because their are muslims does not look good at all.

Calm down please and put a line between religion and extremism. They are not related.

2 things to remember.

1. Talking about some religions as being "more evil" than others IS promoting religion wars and discrimination. I surprised the forum hosts articles like that.

2. Extremists have no religion, they are simply extremists. Some extremist calling himself "muslims or Islam fighters" do that because they want to hide behind a billion Islamic population. And many of you gob the bait on the hook and are readily jumping on all muslim population instead of extremists.

 

[Flip]

Flanker,

You misunderstand - perhaps deliberately.

Islamists are extremists.

Muslims and followers of Islam are not, by and large "Islamists"
Many of us have Muslim friends and neighbors.
Some of us are Muslim.

 

[Flanker]

Flanker,

You misunderstand - perhaps deliberately.

Islamists are extremists.

You are wrong, may be beacause of recent bias in media.
Here is what a dictionary says.

Is·lam·ism (ĭs-lä'mĭz'əm, ĭz-, ĭs'lə-, ĭz'-)
n.
An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life.
The religious faith, principles, or cause of Islam.


So talking about extremists in a religious context is dangerous.

 

[cavalryman]

So talking about extremists in a religious context is dangerous.

Why?  The enemy (al-Quaeda, the Taliban and all their offshoots) clearly states he is waging war against us in the name of his religion.  In this war, the context of Islam is inseparable from the context of the war itself.  The enemy has made it so, whether the vast majority of his co-religionists agree or not.  And I am hoping they do not agree - notwithstanding the thundering silence from some influential quarters. We (the West) are the ones trying desperately to separate the extremists' religion from their politics - the extremists do not. Do Islamists (as we all understand in this context) = all muslims? No.  We all understand that quite clearly. We fight alongside muslims of the ANA and ANP, people whose religion has been hijacked by the extremists.  However to separate the religious context from the political context is impossible - the extremists view the two as inseparable.  In their fundamentalist worldview there is no difference between the will of God and politics.

 

[Greymatters]

Flanker, as much as I'd like to jump in, I think you already have enough participants on this one.  I'll suffice to say that yours is an old argument some of us have been hearing for a long time, and it doesnt cut it.

 

[muskrat89]

2 : a popular reform movement advocating the reordering of government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam
- Is·lam·ist

No one here thinks the average Muslim attending mosque in their community is out to reorder our society. The article is referring to a totally different group of people and you know it. Quit being melodramatic.

 

[Flanker]

Why?  The enemy (al-Quaeda, the Taliban and all their offshoots) clearly states he is waging war against us in the name of his religion. 

Because extremists steal and maliciously exploit Islam as a brand for promoting their messages.
Like this, they want to appear more powerful, hope to get trust and sympathies of muslim population and seek protection under this umbrella when things go bad.
Their principles and fatwas, have nothing to do with muslim religion itself.
It is a simple but working manipulation like selling a new disguisting beverage under a know brand.

Why now innocent muslims should get their religion critisized in media because of some morons that call themselves Islam fighters?
All we understand that religion is a very fragile subject.

In fact, many well known Islam leaders around the world regularly condemn extremist activities and renounce any links with Islam.
Here some examples:

Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:

“The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15).”

Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Qatar; Tariq Bishri, Egypt; Muhammad S. Awwa, Egypt; Fahmi Huwaydi, Egypt; Haytham Khayyat, Syria; Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, U.S.:
“All Muslims ought to be united against all those who terrorize the innocents, and those who permit the killing of non-combatants without a justifiable reason. Islam has declared the spilling of blood and the destruction of property as absolute prohibitions until the Day of Judgment. ... [It is] necessary to apprehend the true perpetrators of these crimes, as well as those who aid and abet them through incitement, financing or other support. They must be brought to justice in an impartial court of law and [punished] appropriately. ... [It is] a duty of Muslims to participate in this effort with all possible means.”

http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

 

[Flanker]

2 : a popular reform movement advocating the reordering of government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam
- Is·lam·ist

No one here thinks the average Muslim attending mosque in their community is out to reorder our society. The article is referring to a totally different group of people and you know it.

Islam religion is extremely tightly related to society culture and customs.
I do not see any problems if a people arrange its society in other manner than the western one.
Do not you think that only one right society model exists?

 

[Greymatters]

Worse than a troll, a misguided troll.  It boggles my mind that you can post this with a straight face.  
Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt
Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan
Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh
Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine

 

[muskrat89]

Flanker - You characterized the article as discriminating against Muslims in general. I have re-read that piece several times, and cannot see anywhere, where that was the case. Ruxted was very specific in condemning extremism.

You are taking issue with something that is simply not there.

You are nattering, plain and simple. I am done with you.

 

[1feral1]

REALITY CHK

Perhaps this Flanker would consider leaving Canada for one of these middle eastern shytehole countries he seems to admire and stand up for. In the 5 that I have been in, the best thing about them was leaving.

I am doubting Flanker's credibility anyways. There is a constant absence of simple common sense and maturity. He is secretive or embarassed about himself, refuses to fill out his profile, and continiously seeks attention. Perhaps he has something to hide, like his age (he claims english is his 3rd language, yet tells nothing more). His intentions are basic, and we've seen many like him/her come and go, and when leaving usually with a bayonet sticking out of their arses, ha!

He is constantly trolling, and smashing every thread he gets in on. He should simply be ignored for what he is, a serial army.ca pest  : . I think he is a 'bullshyte artist' and gets his his pleasure winding us up on here.

Every single one of us have opinons, many based on fact and life experience. His appears to be based on rubbing people the wrong way on purpose, and distorting reality through worthless and spinless posts. I don't mind controversy, and a good debate with many on here, and giving pretty much all a fair go and a chance, but its a one way street with this attention seeker.

Lets just give him enough rope to 'neck' himself on here, he pretty much already has anyway. The mods will feed him to the hammerheads in good sweet time.

Going for another swim..... Having another cold XXXX Gold, and thinking about what I might have for dinner from the BBQ. Perhaps some ham for this pig eating dirty great big infidel  ;D.


Cheers/beers and what ever,



Wes

EDIT, Ok keep on giving me those negatives Flanker, I don't care. Fill your boots!

 

[Flanker]

Flanker - You characterized the article as discriminating against Muslims in general. I have re-read that piece several times, and cannot see anywhere, where that was the case. Ruxted was very specific in condemning extremism.

You are taking issue with something that is simply not there.

You are nattering, plain and simple. I am done with you.

Here are a couple of paragraphs that I found a bit disturbing and inappropriate for a public forum.

It is important to understand that this new war is not between nation states or even traditional, ‘national’ sub-national groups. Since their inception the mujahideen have been pan-Islamic in nature - Osama bin Laden is a Saudi who led an Afghan-based rebel army and hides in Pakistan (we think). His top aides were or are Egyptians, Iraqis, and Jordanians. The moral and religious power of Islam, rather than any one Islamic nation, has been harnessed for evil ends. Young Muslims in Cairo and Calgary hear the call – and it rings loud and clear for young men from Tehran to Toronto: Jihad!, Holy War! This new, long war is being waged with guns and bombs in Afghanistan and Iraq, as it is with words in mosques in Marseilles and Montreal and in the salons of political and media heavyweights in Georgetown, and with money in Geneva. The prize, the new caliphate, is not meant to be a rebirth of, say, the Ottoman Empire. Rather, the enemy plans a super-national Muslim world – one firmly rooted in 12th century Arab culture.
...
It is time for Canadians to stop worrying about seventy casualties or even one hundred and seventy. We need to face the reality of militant Islam and decide how we are going to join with our allies to contain and defeat this newest aggression.

 

[armyvern]

Here are a couple of paragraphs that I found a bit disturbing and inappropriate for a public forum.

Last sentence of what disturbs you (my emphasis):

We need to face the reality of militant Islam and decide how we are going to join with our allies to contain and defeat this newest aggression.

Google is your friend ... run a search ... you'll find many militant Islamic clerics stating exactly that which is in the first paragraph that disturbs you.

So Ruxted put it in black & white on a public forum instead of a videotape beamed into your TV by the MSM or uploaded to the interent. Like it or not, disturbing to you or not; militant Islam has stated that as one of their goals.

Does the truth hurt?? Ooooops ... back to reality ...*



* A 'lil eminem for everyone

 

[cavalryman]

Here are a couple of paragraphs that I found a bit disturbing and inappropriate for a public forum.

In other words, you find a recitation of known facts disturbing and inappropriate?  Hardly a basis for rational discussion.  Please - refute the facts in the Ruxted article - prove them to be false.  Otherwise, there really is nothing to discuss.

 

[Flanker]

In other words, you find a recitation of known facts disturbing and inappropriate?  Hardly a basis for rational discussion.  Please - refute the facts in the Ruxted article - prove them to be false.  Otherwise, there really is nothing to discuss.

I like facts (where are they by the way?)
I do not like generalization.
Instead of 1000 extremists author spreads dirt on 1 000 000 000 Islam adepts.

 

[McG]

Flanker,
It seems you feel this article has painted the whole Muslim world as the enemy.  I don't see this.  I think the article has taken specific aim at that element of the Muslim world which sees itself as our enemy; the enemy has distorted Islam & attempts to use the distortion as a tool to perpetuate it militant struggle. 

Is there something in the article that causes you to feel it is making accusations against all of Islam?  What is it that you see?

 

[Scott]

Flanker,

Do you have something to add other than accusations? Refute the facts, why don't you? It's been asked of you already but you won't. Why?

Quit trolling. Contribute or take off.

Fair warning.

Scott
Army.ca Staff

 

[cavalryman]

I like facts (where are they by the way?)
I do not like generalization.
Instead of 1000 extremists author spreads dirt on 1 000 000 000 Islam adepts.

I see that we have reached an impasse.  It's a bit too late in the evening for me to start providing references for every fact provided in that paragraph you quote, but google is your friend and you will find Ruxted's research well founded.  If you do not wish to educate yourself beyond the boundaries you've imposed upon yourself,  I shan't do it for you. As an observation, if you re-read your posts since my first intervention in this thread, you will see that we agree on many points, especially the hijacking of Islam by those who preach a violent religious/political worldview that is detrimental to both muslims and non-muslims. No one is spreading dirt on 1 billion muslims, least of all Ruxted, and well you know it. If you're attempting to draw an anti-islamic slur from this board for propaganda purposes, good luck.  Too many Canadian troops, including many members of this board, have fought the good fight alongside Afghan troops, who happen to be muslim, and our comrades in arms. 

That being said, I'm signing off the net.  Too much pointless chatter from unknown callsigns.

 

[armyvern]

That being said, I'm signing off the net.  Too much pointless chatter from unknown callsigns.

UK callsigns that call for facts ... but have yet, themselves, to provide them??

I think this insomniac will also get some sleep tonight ... she's getting bored waiting for the facts to back up the rhetoric.