Shooting prisoners and Canadian Army war crimes
- Thread starter Michael Dorosh
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Yes,hot lips
I think a lot of grandfathers out there would say the same or similair,we started out just a bunch of kids,whatever we became,they made us into that.Soldiers.killers.murderers.whatever the nazis want to call some of us,well,we're a product of your evil.I often think of malmedy.according to many nazi soldiers,even panzer soldiers.it never happened.It just didn't,How in the world can all those american soldiers lying side by side in the snow executed,not have happened,We must have been seeing things,I guess.
I think a lot of grandfathers out there would say the same or similair,we started out just a bunch of kids,whatever we became,they made us into that.Soldiers.killers.murderers.whatever the nazis want to call some of us,well,we're a product of your evil.I often think of malmedy.according to many nazi soldiers,even panzer soldiers.it never happened.It just didn't,How in the world can all those american soldiers lying side by side in the snow executed,not have happened,We must have been seeing things,I guess.
"It was a real eye opener for me and changed my complete view of the Italian battles that I had heard for years from western scholars. In those details you will find I suspect very good details of the info you are seeking. The details of Ortona are quiet revealing."
- I have a Freiburg University Library Card from my days in Lahr, but: I ain't going back anytime soon. If you have the time, kindly start a new thread with any points you found interesting.
Tom
- I have a Freiburg University Library Card from my days in Lahr, but: I ain't going back anytime soon. If you have the time, kindly start a new thread with any points you found interesting.
Tom
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We had a presentation at school not long ago from a war veteran, who mentioned that certain people in his unit from post d-day would kill prisioners, but usually only if they had really pissed off the canadians. For instance, they once lost a couple leadership types to a machine gun nest. They captured the machine gun nest, and shot the prisioners they took there. Who knows, but war is war as he said.
Michael Dorosh
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2 Cdo said:For someone who wasn't there you have all answers. :The truth is, without the comfort of sitting behind your computer and 60+ years of hindsight, you MIGHT have acted exactly like Genetk44 stated. I know I probably would!
Your moral sermonizing is starting to get old. It seems that every thread is an invite to spout "The Michael Dorosh Code of Conduct" claiming some higher moral ground.
As a side note, if you were my CO, with your morally superiour attitude, I think I would ask for a transfer, posting anywhere to be free of your self-righteousness!
Personal attacks aside, it's always mystified me to read the comments on here by those who feel we are too soft on criminals, insist they take responsibility for their crimes, defend the death penalty for capital cases - but when it comes to a soldier commiting crimes, there are those who figure it is okay to just shrug and put it down to stress - or worse, just being able to get away with it.
Anyway, the whole point was to discuss the problems of documentation and corroboration and I've gotten a handful of good answers. Thanks to those who went the extra mile.
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Michael, you missed the point completely!
In regards to your complete and total leap of logic, please find where I said it was okay to commit these acts! Without seeing, hearing, smelling all that was a Nazi Concentration camp, one cannot say with 100% clarity how one would act! You, in fact, might have become overwhelmed with emotion and reacted in such a manner. Well, maybe not you, with your moral clarity and feeling of superiority of us lesser human beings! :
In regards to your complete and total leap of logic, please find where I said it was okay to commit these acts! Without seeing, hearing, smelling all that was a Nazi Concentration camp, one cannot say with 100% clarity how one would act! You, in fact, might have become overwhelmed with emotion and reacted in such a manner. Well, maybe not you, with your moral clarity and feeling of superiority of us lesser human beings! :
Michael Dorosh
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2 Cdo said:Michael, you missed the point completely!
In regards to your complete and total leap of logic, please find where I said it was okay to commit these acts! Without seeing, hearing, smelling all that was a Nazi Concentration camp, one cannot say with 100% clarity how one would act! You, in fact, might have become overwhelmed with emotion and reacted in such a manner. Well, maybe not you, with your moral clarity and feeling of superiority of us lesser human beings! :
And if I did act in such a manner, I would expect to face trial. If the court felt that my experiences were mitigating factors, so much the better for me, eh. Hopefully the court would take it into consideration, but I wouldn't expect to get off scot free.
Is there any reason I should?
Anyway, what is the suggestion here? Should shooting and torture of prisoners be made legal, or would simple decriminalization suffice to satisfy those who feel trials for said conduct are unfair?
I have had personal conversations with a member of the Canadian forces who was in Normandy. Here are a few of the stories that he told me:
"When you were on recce you would just lay there and watch. Sometimes you'd just watch for hours. Say you were watching a house. Whenever you saw someone come out of that house you'd look for certain things. Did he have his hat tilted a certain way? Was there something different about him? All so that you wouldn't count him twice. After you were fairly sure that you knew how many there were you'd throw a couple of grenades through the windows but you never pulled the pins. While they were scurrying about trying to avoid the grenades that were rolling around inside we'd just kick the door in and open up on them. Just house cleaning."
Now that is an ambush...not really even close to 'questionable' handling of prisoners but it is difficult to draw the line and everyone interprets things differently.
While discussing the 'executions' at the Abbey and the surrounding area he said "We came upon some of our boys hands tied behind their backs and shot in the head. The Gerries paid for that boy! Did they ever pay for that!"
Now you may think that he meant that they fought extra hard for having seen what they saw but I know what he meant...he meant that they killed any German soldier that they got their hands on.
In another discussion he told me "We were on some farm land and a sniper was taking our boys down one at a time. The commanding officer ordered that a small squad go out and find the sniper. They returned but couldn't find anyone. The commanding officer pointed to a haystack and said 'fire an incendiary bomb into that haystack'. When the bomb was fired into the haystack a French girl came running out. She was 19 and had been having an affair with a German soldier so she was hiding in the hay with a rifle shooting the Germans' enemies. The commanding officer said 'strip her and search her clothing for maps'. None were found. He said 'cut her throat, hang her up and put a sign around her neck saying this is what will happen to anyone who helps the Germans'. It was an order. Nineteen."
Once again...it is open to interpretation slightly because he never stated that he cut her throat but the statement about "it was an order" definitely left me no doubt that her throat was cut by himself or one in his group.
"When you were on recce you would just lay there and watch. Sometimes you'd just watch for hours. Say you were watching a house. Whenever you saw someone come out of that house you'd look for certain things. Did he have his hat tilted a certain way? Was there something different about him? All so that you wouldn't count him twice. After you were fairly sure that you knew how many there were you'd throw a couple of grenades through the windows but you never pulled the pins. While they were scurrying about trying to avoid the grenades that were rolling around inside we'd just kick the door in and open up on them. Just house cleaning."
Now that is an ambush...not really even close to 'questionable' handling of prisoners but it is difficult to draw the line and everyone interprets things differently.
While discussing the 'executions' at the Abbey and the surrounding area he said "We came upon some of our boys hands tied behind their backs and shot in the head. The Gerries paid for that boy! Did they ever pay for that!"
Now you may think that he meant that they fought extra hard for having seen what they saw but I know what he meant...he meant that they killed any German soldier that they got their hands on.
In another discussion he told me "We were on some farm land and a sniper was taking our boys down one at a time. The commanding officer ordered that a small squad go out and find the sniper. They returned but couldn't find anyone. The commanding officer pointed to a haystack and said 'fire an incendiary bomb into that haystack'. When the bomb was fired into the haystack a French girl came running out. She was 19 and had been having an affair with a German soldier so she was hiding in the hay with a rifle shooting the Germans' enemies. The commanding officer said 'strip her and search her clothing for maps'. None were found. He said 'cut her throat, hang her up and put a sign around her neck saying this is what will happen to anyone who helps the Germans'. It was an order. Nineteen."
Once again...it is open to interpretation slightly because he never stated that he cut her throat but the statement about "it was an order" definitely left me no doubt that her throat was cut by himself or one in his group.
PBI,
I believe you are correct in that the tying of Canadian prisoners in PW camps was in reaction to the capture of an operation order that referred to shackling German captives. If I recall correctly, the order was taken ashore despite orders to the contrary by 6 Brigade Headquarters. A member of the headquarters staff attempted unsuccessfully to destroy it before being forced to surrender.
I believe you are correct in that the tying of Canadian prisoners in PW camps was in reaction to the capture of an operation order that referred to shackling German captives. If I recall correctly, the order was taken ashore despite orders to the contrary by 6 Brigade Headquarters. A member of the headquarters staff attempted unsuccessfully to destroy it before being forced to surrender.
Michael Dorosh
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Brigadier Southam was the culprit, I think. And Canadian POWs were then handcuffed (not tied) in German Stalags. The Canadians found they could take the handcuffs off with the keys from cans of condensed milk and meat they got in Red Cross parcels; after a while the handcuffing was a ceremonial thing only for 15 minutes a day IIRC.
Robertson discusses it in depth in The Shame and the Glory. And the KOCR have a life size diorama in their regimental museum showing the handcuffs on Canadianprisoners.
Robertson discusses it in depth in The Shame and the Glory. And the KOCR have a life size diorama in their regimental museum showing the handcuffs on Canadianprisoners.
Michael,
You are absolutely correct. I just looked it up in the Shame and the Glory and on page 380 we find, 'After a swift glace at the enemy on the sea wall, Southam bent down quickly in an attempt to bury his precious package under the pebbles." [end of statement by an eyewitness] His action had not escaped a German officer scanning the beach. In copy 37 of the military plan was the fateful clause: "Where ever possbile, prisoners' hands are to be tied. . . ."'
You are absolutely correct. I just looked it up in the Shame and the Glory and on page 380 we find, 'After a swift glace at the enemy on the sea wall, Southam bent down quickly in an attempt to bury his precious package under the pebbles." [end of statement by an eyewitness] His action had not escaped a German officer scanning the beach. In copy 37 of the military plan was the fateful clause: "Where ever possbile, prisoners' hands are to be tied. . . ."'
Michael Dorosh
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I also seem to recall the document was like a phone book in size and went into ridiculous amounts of detail...so much for KISS. 
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Michael Dorosh said:I also seem to recall the document was like a phone book in size and went into ridiculous amounts of detail...so much for KISS.
Ahh, yes. And thus was founded another fine Canadian miltary tradition: the love of large chunks of paper.
Cheers
pbi
I have found references to the Canadian army's love affair with paper in a Boer War book, From Quebec to Pretoria with the Royal Canadian Regiment. Much of the credit/blame lies with Otter, whose guide was full of the minutiae of petty administration but woefully short of any discussion of matters tactical.
I have found references to the Canadian army's love affair with paper in a Boer War book, From Quebec to Pretoria with the Royal Canadian Regiment. Much of the credit/blame lies with Otter, whose guide was full of the minutiae of petty administration but woefully short of any discussion of matters tactical.
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