Shotgun Pistol

[brihard]

-When you lose your rifle, say from an IED sucking it into limbo
-When your rifle gets a stoppage in a close range engagement

Any time you feel an overwhelming urge to scream "BREAK YO'SELF FOOL!" and fire a gun sideways.

 

[RCPalmer]

NO!  A SMG is not at all similar to a rifle in training.  In fact I would compare the training to be more comparable to a pistol due to the length of the barrel, which greatly degrades accuracy at long ranges; which brings us back to 'your' comment on a max effective range of 25 m.  Having been issued a SMG, the only way to really be proficient on it, one has to be on the range a minimum of three times a week for several weeks; definitely not once a year.

I would assume a semi-auto capability in any modern SMG/PDW, and in that configuration they can be very accurate within their effective range (<100m) with training comparable to what we would provide for a rifle.  My only frame of reference is MP5 and the Kel Tec Sub 2000 (which is more in the nature of a plinker, and not durable enough for military service), but those were both very easy weapons to shoot accurately within their capabilities.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I don't see a requirement for an SMG. If we need something that compact (armour crewmen, etc) we can easily crunch a C7 down to that size and then there's no requirement for separate training.

I had a bunch on deployment that would toss their C7 into the back of the SUVs. They tried to explain that they had a pistol on them should the need arise. My response was that their pistol was only functional to fight their way to the back of the SUV to get the rifle that they shouldn't have put back there in the first place. They soon started having the rifles with them instead of stowed.  [

There is one simple use for the pistol.

And so when man and horse go down
Beneath a saber keen,
Or in a roaring charge of fierce melee
You stop a bullet clean,
And the hostiles come to get your scalp,
Just empty your canteen,
And put your pistol to your head
And go to Fiddlers’ Green.

 

[Lumber]

NO!  A SMG is not at all similar to a rifle in training.  In fact I would compare the training to be more comparable to a pistol due to the length of the barrel, which greatly degrades accuracy at long ranges; which brings us back to 'your' comment on a max effective range of 25 m.  Having been issued a SMG, the only way to really be proficient on it, one has to be on the range a minimum of three times a week for several weeks; definitely not once a year.

Maybe it's just you and me, but with very little training on the MP5, I found it to be extremely accurate at 25m, on par or better than the C8 with EOTech . It was lighter and more ergonomic than the C8, and it barely got hot after 3 full mags. I'm actually disappointed they pulled it from the ship's inventory.

Now, beyond 25m, I don't want any besides a carbine/rifle, but I would much rather an MP5 over my sig.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I get in comparison to the old school SMGs there is a big difference, however some modern ones are closer to our rifles. For example a MP5K. Weighs in at 4.4lbs, similar in size to a pistol (just a bit bigger), significantly more firepower, paddle selector switch/safety, closed bolt system which is closer to a FN-FAL for loading (left hand charging) with a simple tab to remove magazine (similar to a AK in terms of magazine changes). It wouldn't be that much of a training gap from the C7 (especially if you compare it to a pistol).

You would even be able to carry this like a pistol if you wanted to, so you still have a back up weapon, except now it is more effective at short range combat (and can even do some mid range). It is something you might choose to use in room clearing or other short range uses, than your C7 as it is significantly smaller and more controllable in full auto.

 

[LightFighter]

Eaglelord17, I've used both the C7 and C8 for CQB/FIBUA and I've never wished to have a SMG. I have no desire to be switching between a rifle to a SMG when I enter a building than switching back when I exit as a rifle works just fine. Nor do I wish to carry a SMG on my leg, and extra magazines for it, etc.

If I need a secondary, I'd much rather carry a pistol, as they are effective in that role especially if the shooter has proper training and range time with it(marksmanship and transition drills).

 

[RCPalmer]

Eaglelord17, have you ever carried an Infantryman's fighting load? Conducted dismounted patrols, etc. The last thing I would want is a SMG strapped to my leg. I've used both the C7 and C8 for CQB/FIBUA and I've never wished to have a SMG.

If I need a secondary, I'd much rather carry a pistol, as they are effective in that role especially if the shooter has proper training and range time with it(marksmanship and transition drills).

I think it is more for the CSS troops to avoid the "rifles in the truck" scenario that RecceGuy describes when there isn't a combat arms guys around to guilt them into carrying them.  It would ensure that there is no excuse for carrying a proper weapon if that weapon can be carried in a holster, and doesn't interfere with the member's other tasks. 

 

[LightFighter]

I think it is more for the CSS troops to avoid the "rifles in the truck" scenario that RecceGuy describes when there isn't a combat arms guys around to guilt them into carrying them.  It would ensure that there is no excuse for carrying a proper weapon if that weapon can be carried in a holster, and doesn't interfere with the member's other tasks.

I was commenting on Eagelord17s post

You would even be able to carry this like a pistol if you wanted to, so you still have a back up weapon, except now it is more effective at short range combat (and can even do some mid range). It is something you might choose to use in room clearing or other short range uses, than your C7 as it is significantly smaller and more controllable in full auto.

 

[brihard]

I get in comparison to the old school SMGs there is a big difference, however some modern ones are closer to our rifles. For example a MP5K. Weighs in at 4.4lbs, similar in size to a pistol (just a bit bigger), significantly more firepower, paddle selector switch/safety, closed bolt system which is closer to a FN-FAL for loading (left hand charging) with a simple tab to remove magazine (similar to a AK in terms of magazine changes). It wouldn't be that much of a training gap from the C7 (especially if you compare it to a pistol).

You would even be able to carry this like a pistol if you wanted to, so you still have a back up weapon, except now it is more effective at short range combat (and can even do some mid range). It is something you might choose to use in room clearing or other short range uses, than your C7 as it is significantly smaller and more controllable in full auto.

You're ignoring a critical element What comes out of the muzzle. 9mm Luger versus 62gr 5.56mm. Why would you deliberately enter a firefight armed with 9mm out of an SMG when you can enter the fight with 5.56 instead? There's a reason that the various professional doorkickers have moved away from MP5s towards various makes and models of AR family carbines.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You're ignoring a critical element What comes out of the muzzle. 9mm Luger versus 62gr 5.56mm. Why would you deliberately enter a firefight armed with 9mm out of an SMG when you can enter the fight with 5.56 instead? There's a reason that the various professional doorkickers have moved away from MP5s towards various makes and models of AR family carbines.

That and the muscle memory that comes from using different weapons. Like I said, a crunched down AR would not require any extra training or burden on the existing logistical system.

 

[Jarnhamar]

http://www.coltcanada.com/iur.html

Could even get away with using the same lower and just swap the uppers.

 

[brihard]

http://www.coltcanada.com/iur.html

Could even get away with using the same lower and just swap the uppers.

IUR-14 is what I have at work. They've put together a very nice carbine. I've not found it to be unwieldy in indoors work. Is it MP-5 short? No, certainly not. I'll take a bit more bulk though for the vastly superior terminal ballistics.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

http://www.coltcanada.com/iur.html

Could even get away with using the same lower and just swap the uppers.

Just made my point. 

There are also barrels for the system that are shorter than 10". If needed, you could slap a 4"-6" upper on and shorten it that much more.

 

[Eaglelord17]

There are also barrels for the system that are shorter than 10". If needed, you could slap a 4"-6" upper on and shorten it that much more.

Have you ever shot a 5.56 with a barrel 10" or less? It has a ton of muzzle blast, and isn't pleasant to say the least, not to mention difficult to effectively control. If it is dark, any night vision you have will be instantly removed. The AR platform isn't as compact as you can make a gun by a long shot. A MP5k as a easy example is roughly the size of the receiver without the buffer tub attached to the back. 

You're ignoring a critical element What comes out of the muzzle. 9mm Luger versus 62gr 5.56mm. Why would you deliberately enter a firefight armed with 9mm out of an SMG when you can enter the fight with 5.56 instead? There's a reason that the various professional doorkickers have moved away from MP5s towards various makes and models of AR family carbines.

You have a point, however 9mm will still kill someone at short ranges, it has been doing it for over 100 years at this point. The fact that a good SMG is extremely controllable on full auto also means that you get multiple hits easily.

The only time you would have issues if there was body armour involved (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout), in which case I am doubting the capability of the 5.56 to get the job done as well (realistically I would want something like 7.62 Nato AP if that was the situation).

Eaglelord17, I've used both the C7 and C8 for CQB/FIBUA and I've never wished to have a SMG. I have no desire to be switching between a rifle to a SMG when I enter a building than switching back when I exit as a rifle works just fine. Nor do I wish to carry a SMG on my leg, and extra magazines for it, etc.

If I need a secondary, I'd much rather carry a pistol, as they are effective in that role especially if the shooter has proper training and range time with it(marksmanship and transition drills).

Part of the argument is how much training do you have to receive to be effective with the pistol and rifle? Once you get your skills up you definitely can be more effective with a pistol, however the time and training required is both long and expensive. Most people in the CF happen to requalify once a year, a SMG would be better suited to those type of people than a pistol would. Especially those that sit behind a desk with the pistol strapped to them so they have a weapon, they need more firepower than that, because the majority of them will be fairly ineffective with the pistol if they are called upon to use it.

 

[Journeyman]

Well Eaglelord17, you've gone from 'pistols are next to useless -- an expensive status symbol' to wanting a new type of kit (SMGs $$) to arm people sitting behind desks (arguably not particularly in harms' way), which would require additional training, even though you claim they don't get enough time to qualify effectively on pistol already.  Outstanding.

Please tell us that you don't work in NDHQ.

 

[George Wallace]

......... The fact that a good SMG is extremely controllable on full auto also means that you get multiple hits easily.

.......... Most people in the CF happen to requalify once a year, a SMG would be better suited to those type of people than a pistol would. Especially those that sit behind a desk with the pistol strapped to them so they have a weapon, they need more firepower than that, because the majority of them will be fairly ineffective with the pistol if they are called upon to use it.

I am far from being a "Gun Nut", but even I, with my experience firing a SMG (with a short barrel) know that hitting targets on FULL AUTO takes a lot of training.  It seems to me that you do not think that a SMG firing on FULL AUTO has a large dispersion (due to having a short barrel) zone, nor realize that a very few of the rounds will actually hit the target, especially when an inexperienced and less than skilled person is firing it.  Your example above would likely result in more Blue on Blue casualties than not.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Not much difference between a closed bolt SMG and a C7. Its like how there isn't a significant amount of difference between a C6 and C9. Overall I do consider pistols next to useless in comparison for there money. I do a bit of pistol shooting on the side, and that is why I feel they aren't the best for a military. The amount of training you need in comparison to what I see you getting out of it is significant. Its not that pistols can't be effect, its difficult to get someone effective on it (I have met people who can shoot 100m with a pistol consistently, however they shoot tens of thousands of rounds a year).

Even if you didn't get a SMG, look at what else we could buy with the money. How about Arty (maybe even self propelled) which cause the vast majority of casualities, or a B class fleet so we can actually supply and do what we need to do. How about AA considering we 'might' be getting 65 aircraft and maybe they might not be able to retain air superiority with those numbers. The question is if it is worth the money (i.e. is there things that should be higher priority).

Don't worry I don't work in NDHQ, and I have no intentions of ever going there. Likely my crazy ideas wouldn't be well received  ;D

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Have you ever shot a 5.56 with a barrel 10" or less? It has a ton of muzzle blast, and isn't pleasant to say the least, not to mention difficult to effectively control. If it is dark, any night vision you have will be instantly removed. The AR platform isn't as compact as you can make a gun by a long shot. A MP5k as a easy example is roughly the size of the receiver without the buffer tub attached to the back.  You have a point, however 9mm will still kill someone at short ranges, it has been doing it for over 100 years at this point. The fact that a good SMG is extremely controllable on full auto also means that you get multiple hits easily.

I have, many times. I happen to own a few and you're overstating your case against them.

 

[Good2Golf]

IUR-14 is what I have at work. They've put together a very nice carbine. I've not found it to be unwieldy in indoors work. Is it MP-5 short? No, certainly not. I'll take a bit more bulk though for the vastly superior terminal ballistics.

IUR15.7 is nice too...and with the stock full in, you can have a pretty compact form.

Eaglelord17, I'd be very interested to know why you think a 10" C8/M4/AR-15/whatever is "difficult to effectively control?" ???

G2G

 

[Dissident]

Eaglelord17, I'd be very interested to know why you think a 10" C8/M4/AR-15/whatever is "difficult to effectively control?" ???

Having shot the MP5SD full auto, anything else would feel "difficult to effectively control".