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snyper21 said:
Allright! You and the others confirmed what I thought and I will not apply for the CPL this summer. Anyway, besides looking good on a resume, it does not change a thing that I don't have the license, since I will continue to fly anyway (trying to master a taildragger these days!) in order to gain experience and improve. It's not the piece of paper issued by Transport Canada that will change something, since I do not want to work in civil aviation.
Thanks everyone
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trampbike said:
This is a question I have been wondering about for quite some time as well. Does anyone have an answer? I do have my commercial but since I've finished I haven't been able to afford flying while completing my degree. That combined with the fact that military flying is inherently different than civilian leans me towards wanting to take PFT despite the wait times (if its an option).
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A colleague of mine is in a similar situation. He was only a few hours shy of his CPL when he joined. Now he is wishing he would have completed it and got the PFT bypass. He has been waiting for PFT for 1.5 years and will have to wait again for BFT. He says that he would have preferred just waiting for BFT. That being said, as some other posters have pointed out, PFT teaches you to fly how the military wants. Just keep this in mind when you make your decision.
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CJP, I don't know the answer to whether having a CPL forces a mandatory bypass of PFT, but I'll dig a round a bit, or Zoomie might be able to ask the Phase 1 guys down the flight line what the policy is. I can't see you being forced to the streaming route if you wish to go through the full selection/training process.
Brian, the wait is frustrating, no doubt, but once your friend is operational at a squadron years from now, he may just recall the time during OJT as a few more years added to his pension. (that and perhaps the source of a few good stories at his wings grad party!)
Cheers
G2G
Brian, the wait is frustrating, no doubt, but once your friend is operational at a squadron years from now, he may just recall the time during OJT as a few more years added to his pension. (that and perhaps the source of a few good stories at his wings grad party!)
Cheers
G2G
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I'm not saying there aren't some interesting aspects of OJT, I'm just adding that I personnally know someone who wishes they had the PFT bypass and with only a few more hours would have gotten it. Who knows, he may get to Moose Jaw and say "Wow, I am glad that I took PFT." Right now he would still have gone on OJT before BFT so I am just adding it as some food for thought for the guys joinining that almost have a CPL. I am rather biased against OJT but I would be speaking out of line to say weather it is better to bypass PFT or not.
BTW, to the guys looking to join as a pilot. I generally rant about how shitty OJT is but I usually post about it when I am particularly pissed off about something. OJT can be fun, it is long but you can do some interesting things and it is often fairly slack. There is lots of leeway for fun activities and tons of time for sports and the gym. That being said, most of us would rather be flying. I have a 3 year gap between my PFT and BFT (your wait time won't be this long) so I have forgotten most of what I was taught on PFT, so keep that in mind if your are deciding on a bypass or not. Either way, when you make a decision stick with it and enjoy it. It's an adventure.
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I had 4 years between PFT and BFT and still did very well on course.. PFT has nothing to do with BFT.
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I never said PFT was useless, however the flying you do on PFT has nothing to do with the flying you do on BFT. The way military does buisness and how they teach their students is what you can get out of it. But don't think because you aced PFT that you'll ace BFT.
I believe a CPL from an "accredited" school (whatever that means, it's on the CF's list) will get you a PFT bypass. I know of several people who have done this. I don't think they were at any disadvantage when they did Moose Jaw but then again you may argue they had an advantage because they have already done a fair amount of training, are somewhat experienced in an aircraft and understand IFR rules, meteorology etc. But, I know of several guys who were former professional pilots, have over a thousand hours experience as a CP, and failed hard. I know many guys who never even touched an airplane before the military and were consistently the top of every course. It has a lot to do with the individual. I'm not sure all the money you'd invest in a CPL is worth it since the military will work hard to break all your civilian habits and instill it's own philosophy. It could save you some time I suppose and perhaps getting your wings a year earlier is worth the $
PFT is good because it's an introduction to the military way of flight training which is very different than your local flying school - very different. You get used to a specific format and method of approaching each lesson, each maneuver etc. That will allow you to get with the program in MJ - which is a bigger, more sophisticated learning curve but follows a similar format. PFT, is not the be all, end all of flight training however. There are parts of the course that probably could use an overhaul. It's a civilian run organization that uses civilian instructors and there is some controversy over some of the levels of instruction. I'm not going to go there, but the last I heard the latest version of the course is about 28 hours - not much and the syllabus is quite simple. It doesn't cover what a PPL does and the only thing extra it adds is intro aerobatics.
PFT has been unofficially described (rightly or wrongly) as a "selection course" as students are evaluated on their potential to proceed through the rest of flight training successfully. Doing this evaluation in an airplane is the most relevant way. CAPSS hopefully weeded out most of what needed to be weeded, PFT is suppose to get the rest. It's a short course and you have to make the grade fast or your done. Moose Jaw has been described unofficially as a "training" course as they'd like every student to pass and will work to "fix" your problems and help you meet the standards. If you start a MJ course, you've been selected to be trained as a pilot. Now, not every student can fix their problems and achieve the standard - and inevitably people are failed off course.
MJ doesn't pickup where PFT left off. There is no real connection between the courses. You'll get to MJ and start right from the basics - but within a handful of flights and I think under 10 hours, you're sent solo on a 1100 hp monster. So if you're not making the grade quickly right from the start, you're in trouble. MJ is a great leveler of the playing field. Guys with no experience can top the course. Guys with tons of experience often fail. It's very different flying than any civy flight school or even PFT teaches. It's a whole different world and you have to adapt fast.
PFT is good because it's an introduction to the military way of flight training which is very different than your local flying school - very different. You get used to a specific format and method of approaching each lesson, each maneuver etc. That will allow you to get with the program in MJ - which is a bigger, more sophisticated learning curve but follows a similar format. PFT, is not the be all, end all of flight training however. There are parts of the course that probably could use an overhaul. It's a civilian run organization that uses civilian instructors and there is some controversy over some of the levels of instruction. I'm not going to go there, but the last I heard the latest version of the course is about 28 hours - not much and the syllabus is quite simple. It doesn't cover what a PPL does and the only thing extra it adds is intro aerobatics.
PFT has been unofficially described (rightly or wrongly) as a "selection course" as students are evaluated on their potential to proceed through the rest of flight training successfully. Doing this evaluation in an airplane is the most relevant way. CAPSS hopefully weeded out most of what needed to be weeded, PFT is suppose to get the rest. It's a short course and you have to make the grade fast or your done. Moose Jaw has been described unofficially as a "training" course as they'd like every student to pass and will work to "fix" your problems and help you meet the standards. If you start a MJ course, you've been selected to be trained as a pilot. Now, not every student can fix their problems and achieve the standard - and inevitably people are failed off course.
MJ doesn't pickup where PFT left off. There is no real connection between the courses. You'll get to MJ and start right from the basics - but within a handful of flights and I think under 10 hours, you're sent solo on a 1100 hp monster. So if you're not making the grade quickly right from the start, you're in trouble. MJ is a great leveler of the playing field. Guys with no experience can top the course. Guys with tons of experience often fail. It's very different flying than any civy flight school or even PFT teaches. It's a whole different world and you have to adapt fast.
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Wow, thanks for all the information guys. I just got my job offer Friday, so now I'll have to put it all together and figure out a plan. I'm not sure if its correct, but the accredited schools may be certain colleges that offer aviation diplomas. I know the school I went to used to be considered as an acceptable school under the old community college entry plan (CCEP), but that program was dropped before I graduated unfortunately.
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I believe any CPL will bypass PFT. Change from the past.
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I'm amazed how fast the pilot positions fill up!
I submitted my online application less than 2 weeks ago, and went in to CFRC Toronto to submit the rest of my docs, only to find out that the DEO positions had already been closed.
Unfortunately, I was told to wait it out until next April. Does anyone have any suggestions on what my options are for the time being, besides calling in once in a while to check for an open spot?
I submitted my online application less than 2 weeks ago, and went in to CFRC Toronto to submit the rest of my docs, only to find out that the DEO positions had already been closed.
Unfortunately, I was told to wait it out until next April. Does anyone have any suggestions on what my options are for the time being, besides calling in once in a while to check for an open spot?
FlightPathUnknown,
Assuming you have your heart set on Pilot and are not open to pursuing another trade in the CF, the best advice I can give you is to resume your normal life as if you will never get the position. I say this because the process of getting a job will be a long one (likely years) with a lot of ups and downs. There are many factors some of which are in your control, some not, that will determine if you are eligible or not.
Another tip would be to extensively read through the threads in this forum, it will help to give you some realistic perspective with regard to the road ahead of you based on what others have gone through in the past.
Aside from that all you can really do is keep popping by the recruiting centre occasionally so they remember you (in a good way) and so you'll be the first to know if they start processing applications.
Increasing your flying experience would also make your application more competitive, but this is a costly investment and the difference it will make on your file is uncertain.
My 2 cents, take it for what its worth.
Beech
Assuming you have your heart set on Pilot and are not open to pursuing another trade in the CF, the best advice I can give you is to resume your normal life as if you will never get the position. I say this because the process of getting a job will be a long one (likely years) with a lot of ups and downs. There are many factors some of which are in your control, some not, that will determine if you are eligible or not.
Another tip would be to extensively read through the threads in this forum, it will help to give you some realistic perspective with regard to the road ahead of you based on what others have gone through in the past.
Aside from that all you can really do is keep popping by the recruiting centre occasionally so they remember you (in a good way) and so you'll be the first to know if they start processing applications.
Increasing your flying experience would also make your application more competitive, but this is a costly investment and the difference it will make on your file is uncertain.
My 2 cents, take it for what its worth.
Beech
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As Beech Boy said, be patient. A few months, maybe 8-10 months, will seem like not much time if you get accepted and enter the training system. Use the time to work on your fitness, hone your organizational skills and other general "getting my life in good shape" so that when the call comes, you are all sorted out and ready to go! :nod:
Trust me, as much as folks want to help make things move along, we are dealing with a large organization. I say that not to speak ill of the CF, far from it, but it is what it is, a large organization, and sometimes things don't move as quickly as someone waiting by a phone might like. A good friend worked at IBM for years and we used to enjoy trying to out do each other with stories about how slow things can move in our organizations. Just think, Scott Adams never spent a single day of his life in the military, yet every Dilbert cartoon I read couldn't hit the nail closer on the head.
At the very least, I would recommend getting a copy of the book, "From the Ground Up (Millennium Edition): (ISBN# 978-0969005483) to familiarize yourself with aviation and flying.
Best of luck when the opening come up again.
G2G
Trust me, as much as folks want to help make things move along, we are dealing with a large organization. I say that not to speak ill of the CF, far from it, but it is what it is, a large organization, and sometimes things don't move as quickly as someone waiting by a phone might like. A good friend worked at IBM for years and we used to enjoy trying to out do each other with stories about how slow things can move in our organizations. Just think, Scott Adams never spent a single day of his life in the military, yet every Dilbert cartoon I read couldn't hit the nail closer on the head.
At the very least, I would recommend getting a copy of the book, "From the Ground Up (Millennium Edition): (ISBN# 978-0969005483) to familiarize yourself with aviation and flying.
Best of luck when the opening come up again.
G2G
If you're set on pilot only then continuing your life is good advice. When I was first told to wait until next April I went back to school, which worked out well since it was another 2 years before I got my acceptance.
Also talk to your recruiter about bringing up weaker parts of your application to ensure you are competitive when the next round of positions opens up. This doesn't necessarily have to be flight experience; could be extra-curricular activities that involve team work and/or leadership, sports, community activities, training/certificates etc.
Best of luck!
Also talk to your recruiter about bringing up weaker parts of your application to ensure you are competitive when the next round of positions opens up. This doesn't necessarily have to be flight experience; could be extra-curricular activities that involve team work and/or leadership, sports, community activities, training/certificates etc.
Best of luck!
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thanks very much for the advice, it's much appreciated.
To adress some of the points brought up:
My 3 choices in the Airforce was Pilot, Aerospace Engineer, and Aerospace controller. As of 2 weeks ago, only the Pilot position was open (DEO), and the latter 2 closed. I'm definitely interested in all 3 positions, so hopefully one will open up, but my preference is with pilot.
In terms of the wait periods and reading material, I've gone through all the pages in this thread, as well as the 'personal stories' threads (among others), and have learned a great deal. Also, as I've previously applied to several civilian gov't jobs (mostly federal) i'm used to the wait periods (8 months to a year doesn't surprise me).
As for now, as already suggested, the plan is to further work on physical fitness and wait patiently until something opens up.
Thanks again
To adress some of the points brought up:
My 3 choices in the Airforce was Pilot, Aerospace Engineer, and Aerospace controller. As of 2 weeks ago, only the Pilot position was open (DEO), and the latter 2 closed. I'm definitely interested in all 3 positions, so hopefully one will open up, but my preference is with pilot.
In terms of the wait periods and reading material, I've gone through all the pages in this thread, as well as the 'personal stories' threads (among others), and have learned a great deal. Also, as I've previously applied to several civilian gov't jobs (mostly federal) i'm used to the wait periods (8 months to a year doesn't surprise me).
As for now, as already suggested, the plan is to further work on physical fitness and wait patiently until something opens up.
Thanks again
I am also in the wait until next year. Originally applied in April for Aerospace Control Officer and Air Combat Systems Officer (Air Nav). After I wrote my CFAT, the positions closed. The only other two positions left that I could apply for were MARS and Pilot. I never thought of applying for pilot as I always thought that you had to have perfect vision but my recruiter said the requirements have changed. Did my medical and got V2. Did my interview and they were impressed. Had my eyes checked out, blood work done and ECG and they sent my file over to Ottawa for medical clearance and for possible invite for Air Crew selection. Called my recruiter this week to check on my status and he said that all spots were filled last week. Basically my file is on long-term hold and they said to call back in October where they will find out whether I will qualify for nomination for Air Crew selection and there is a possibility that they may have Air Crew selection late this year or early next year.
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