Some sidetrack....

[tamouh]

Interesting views in here. "Islamic Insurgency" I believe is a huge mislabel of the current war. In the eyes of the Muslims world wide, they view America and its allies as crusaders simply because they believe the US is against Muslims having any sort of power period.

There are few things need clarification:

What are you defining an "Islamic Insurgency" here ?  Some stated that Saudi, Syria and Iran are the biggest threats to western society. WRONG! Syria and Saudi are considered relatively one of the most important allies to the US. The Arabs and Muslims in general are upset of really one thing alone, Israel.

You take Israel out of the equation, the Arabs will turn their hate and attention against their own leaders who have opressed them for many decades now. This is also the same reason why Arab leaders stand firm against Israel existance, because they know it is the only reason they are still in power.

Democracy really will not exist in the Middle East in its current western form because simply any democracy will produce a majority Islamic government (note: I'm not talking Islamic as in Iran, but nevertheless government base its rule on the principles of Islam). This what happened in Algeria mid-90s , Palestine recently, Turkey early 21st century and the local Saudi county elections.

The west should be focused on fighting Terrorism, not Islamism.

 

[Nemo888]

The GWOT is, like Pappy said, an "outsourcing" of war. Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia are currently united in a common front against the United States, since the US not only stands against their goals (Ba'athist dictatorship; Islamic Theocracy; Authoratarian monarchy when reduced to the simplest terms), but is actively creating conditions through cultural, economic and now military means to end their ambitions.

  Didn't the US support the Ba'athist's, Kermit Roosevelt installed the Saudi Royals, and the Islamic Insurgency which began in Iran was a reaction to the Shah who was put in by the CIA after the ousting of Mossadegh? The lack of democracy and corrupt Royals is the source of problems in Saudi. The only political outlet in Saudi is the mosque as all other political outlets end in execution. Iran was a democracy before we installed the Shah. It is a historical fact that the CIA thought he was going to side with Russia, so we got rid of him. Syria is just so corrupt I think they are a valid target.

  I don't want to make trouble but this is my understanding of recent Middle Eastern history. I also think we had absolutely no choice. It was either us or the Russians. With that much cash the Soviets may have crushed us. But neglecting history will really bite us in the ass. Now I know you want to go for the throat, but could someone explain why I am nuts in a nice way?

 

[tamouh]

Nemo888:
The only political outlet in Saudi is the mosque as all other political outlets end in execution. Iran was a democracy before we installed the Shah. It is a historical fact that the CIA thought he was going to side with Russia, so we got rid of him. Syria is just so corrupt I think they are a valid target

Right On!

 

[xenobard]

Hamas / Palestinian incursion into Israel:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5114072.stm?ls

Gun battle near Gaza border post 

It is the largest attack since Israeli troops left Gaza
Palestinian gunmen have attacked an Israeli army post near the Gaza Strip reportedly killing two Israelis before soldiers shot dead three militants.
Another Israeli soldier was reported missing after the attack, the worst clash since Israeli troops left Gaza.

Militants tunnelled under the border at Kerem Shalom before attacking with guns and rocket-propelled grenades.

Hours after the raid dozens of Israeli tanks, backed by helicopter gunships, pushed into the Gaza Strip.

Four other Israeli soldiers were injured in the violence, one of them seriously.

Revenge

There had been reports that the Palestinian militants had seized the body of an Israeli soldier, but Israeli military officials have denied this is the case.

"As far as we know, the soldier is alive," Israeli army chief of staff Dan Halutz said.

A spokesman for Gaza's Popular Resistance Committee said they carried out the attack on the military post in revenge for the death of their leader, Jamal Abu Samhadana, in an Israeli strike.

The armed wing of Palestinian militant group Hamas said its forces aided the attack, using firearms and bombs.

 

Hamas, currently the governing Palestinian party, ended an informal ceasefire with Israel earlier in June following the deaths of eight members of a Palestinian family on a Gaza beach.

Hamas blamed the beach explosion on shelling from an Israeli warship, a charge Israel has denied.

The BBC's Alan Johnston in Gaza says that if Hamas did participate in this attack it represents a serious escalation in its dealings with Israel.

Close to 20 Palestinian civilians have been killed in Gaza in recent weeks as a result of the Israeli air force's efforts to target militants from groups like Hamas, our correspondent says.

The attack is the largest operation of its kind since Israel withdrew its troops and settlers from Gaza last summer, our correspondent says.

A Hamas spokesman said that the militants had destroyed a tank, but Israeli military sources would not confirm this.

Hamas is due to continue talks later on Sunday with the rival Palestinian Fatah faction to try to end their power struggle and form a united front.

The Palestinian soldiers - including members of Hamas - tunneled under the border and attacked an Israeli border-post, killing maybe 4 Israeli soldiers and probably destroying a tank!

All this after Israel has withdrawn from Gaza, and (from my point of view) tried to come to some sort of compromise with the Palestinians.  I fear that the Israelis have lost patience, and that their next counter-attack will be exceedingly severe, perhaps even a complete anhilation of Hamas' leadership and political and military infrastructure, followed by an all-out invasion and full-fledged military occupation of Gaza.  This time, however, it will be occupied soley by the Israeli military, with no Israeli settlers. 

If Hamas keeps up such attacks, I think this is inevitable.

 

[tamouh]

All this after Israel has withdrawn from Gaza, and (from my point of view) tried to come to some sort of compromise with the Palestinians.  I fear that the Israelis have lost patience, and that their next counter-attack will be exceedingly severe, perhaps even a complete anhilation of Hamas' leadership and political and military infrastructure, followed by an all-out invasion and full-fledged military occupation of Gaza.  This time, however, it will be occupied soley by the Israeli military, with no Israeli settlers. 

Israel has been pounding Hamas, Palestinians and the whole Gaza territory constantly everyday for the past 4 years, Hamas about a year ago declared single sided truce which they went back on about a few week ago after the civilian death on Gaza beach. On the other hand, the Jihad group continued its suicide bombings inside Israel, but notice how Hamas pretty much suspended all its military operations until the past few weeks.

Israel has vowed in every single news outlet to target every Hamas militant, leadership and even there were rumors of wanting to target the current Hamas PM. I don't believe Israel offered the Palestinians anything really. They gave them a bunch of land that they couldn't control firmly in the first place and was drawing critisism against the Israeli government. Israel has no interest in Gaza, this is why they were building the wall dividing Gaza outside of Israel from the beginning.

What interested me in this news the amount of work the Palestinian militants had to go through just to attack a single post!! This is I believe either the 2nd or the 3rd time they've used the tunnel tactic.

I doubt Israel will want to get back into Gaza, they might destroy couple of homes, fire couple of missiles , do a maneuver with tanks for couple of days but they have no reason to stay. Hamas also has no interest in going with war again against Gaza, but my believe that Hamas is trying to send a message to Israel to stop their assassination campaign of militants or there will be a response. Israel obviously doesn't accept to be threaten by anyone and especially Hamas, so they'll continue to attack, and the Palestinians will counter attack until who knows when!

It just seems in that part of the world nobody listens nor interested in a real compromise. They go about solving things the middle eastern way!!

 

[paracowboy]

It just seems in that part of the world nobody listens nor interested in a real compromise.

Israel has offered compromise for decades. They have bent over backwards to do so. The Palestinians are content with being tools of Individuals who are seeking power (what was his name again? The Nobel Prize winner? Oh yeah! Arafat), or greedy neighbouring governments (Jordan, Egypt, Syria). It allows them to play the role of martyr, all the easier then, to teach your children murder and suicide. More convenient when you steal UN money to fund your own acts of terror, or use Red Cross vehicles to ferry arms and assassins.

 

[1feral1]

Israel has been pounding Hamas, Palestinians and the whole Gaza territory constantly everyday for the past 4 years

I have been simmering for some time with this character, and I am biting, just a bit anyways.....

Firstly I am not a big fan of Israel either, both sides are as bad as one another in many ways with this tit for tat escalation, however, Israelis are NOT strapping bombs to themselves and targeting cafes and shopping centres are they, and Israelis are not harbouring terrorists amoung innocent people either are they. Israel is reacting to keeping its borders secure, relying on intelligence, and pre-empting a strike to KILL terrorists who are about to kill innocent people, not soldiers (or rarely soldiers anyways).

At the end of the day, 1000 years from now, like a 1000 years ago, violence will remain constant in the middle east, that looks like how its gonna be, if they can't fight with someone else, they'll fight with each other, or export their violence and hatred to our neck of the woods acting out on some limp dicked reason to kill innocents, thats happening now, but again thats not Israelis doing that is it.

Frankly, I am sick of it all, and my GAF factor is just hovering at zero now, maybe lower. Its obvious by your posts to see the side you are on, and if you feel so negative about Israel and the whole western view of the MEAO, instead of flapping you gums, why don't you commit yourself to some real action and go over and help 'em out instead of whinging on here. There is plenty of AKMs and sucicide belts to go around. I am sure plenty on here could muster up enough money to buy you a one way ticket. I'll donate!!!

You portray yourself to be some type of a supporter of these islamic murdering cowards, trying to justify their murderous actions, yet you will not devuldge your experiences (you have been asked), and are rather secretive/mysterous in many ways. So I am tending to believe you are some kind of a Walter Mitty or poser, just on here to stir the pot. If you are a one of these supporters (yes if), why have you chosen to live in a western country anyways? With your views, I would be much happier if you left, not only this website, but the country.

Just remember, you are taking to another immigrant (although just another bacon loving whisky swilling womanising infidel) here, someone who has given so much to get here, yet gained so much by leaving my homeland, so don't try hood winking the old dog.

Shyte or get off the pot, MATE!

Wes

 

[tamouh]

Israel has offered compromise for decades. They have bent over backwards to do so. The Palestinians are content with being tools of Individuals who are seeking power (what was his name again? The Nobel Prize winner? Oh yeah! Arafat), or greedy neighbouring governments (Jordan, Egypt, Syria).

I don't think Israel bent anything backward, they're still in violation of all UN resolutions out there.

Agree greedy neighbours and self interests from Arab, European and the US is fueling the rage over there. Also lets not forget the Jordanians and Syrians have committed massacres against the Palestinians. Let me also add what happened in Libya when Al-Qathafi exiled (kicked out a better term) most Palestinians from Libya after the peace deal in end of 90s.

It allows them to play the role of martyr, all the easier then, to teach your children murder and suicide. More convenient when you steal UN money to fund your own acts of terror, or use Red Cross vehicles to ferry arms and assassins.

These are Israeli army claims regarding red cross vehicles (or red crescent), not verifiable by any 3rd party reliable source and therefore
i'll not dispute them or agree on them.


-- Note: I'm no fan of that conflict either and I have no interest in going into a debate over it. It will be just a waste of time as both sides and their supporters have something to bring to the table. I feel bad for the average poor people Arabs and Israelis who actually want and try to make peace with each others, but unfortunately their voices goes unheard among the crowds calling for revenge and blood.

.......why don't you commit yourself to some real action and go over and help 'em out instead of whinging on here.........You portray yourself to be some type of a supporter of these islamic murdering cowards, trying to justify their murderous actions, yet you will not devuldge your experiences (you have been asked), and are rather secretive/mysterous in many ways. So I am tending to believe you are some kind of a Walter Mitty or poser, just on here to stir the pot. If you are a one of these supporters (yes if), why have you chosen to live in a western country anyways? With your views, I would be much happier if you left, not only this website, but the country.

Just pathetic. The reason why I come to this forum because i gain no knowledge nor experience from liberal forums. They're pretty much in line with what I say and possibly even much more towards the left. Thanks for your kind comments, but no thanks for your offer.

 

[1feral1]

Just pathetic. The reason why I come to this forum because i gain no knowledge nor experience from liberal forums. They're pretty much in line with what I say and possibly even much more towards the left. Thanks for your kind comments, but no thanks for your offer.

You provided the answer almost to the word I thought you would.

I rest my case, Poser.

 

[Michael OLeary]

tamouh,

Perhaps you can answer this for me: with the increasingly prominent claims of "peaceful Islam" trying to distance itself from terrorist acts, why haven't Islamic communities worldwide been more prominent in identifying those within their communities who might be preparing to commit such acts?  Wouldn't such peace supporting initiatives actually support the image of "peaceful Islam" which some seem so determined to push to the fore?

 

[tomahawk6]

The Israelis are considered the problem from the palestinian point of view and the anti-semetics of Europe. However, Israel has a right to exist. They have a right to defend themselves from attack. The Israelis have fought three wars against its neighbors who were trying to occupy Israel. Most recently they have fought a guerrilla or asymetric war against Palestinian terror groups. After years of trying to acheive a peace deal Israel has decided to build a frontier barrier and withdraw behind it. The terror groups continue to attack Israel sparking a tit for tat response. The Israelis on top of all this are threatened by Iran who has stated its desire to see Israel wiped off the map and are creating nuclear weapons capable of just that.One would think the democracies of the world would stand with Israel in the face of militant islam,but that is not the case.

 

[George Wallace]

Israel has been pounding Hamas, Palestinians and the whole Gaza territory constantly everyday for the past 4 years, Hamas about a year ago declared single sided truce which they went back on about a few week ago after the civilian death on Gaza beach. On the other hand, the Jihad group continued its suicide bombings inside Israel, but notice how Hamas pretty much suspended all its military operations until the past few weeks.

You seriously don't in all honesty believe this statement?  Hamas has never been able to declare a "Truce".  They have an election and win.  The politicians declare a "Truce" and the militants of the party immediately break it.  If you don't recognize the facts as placed on the News, you are wasting our time.  Take your little conspiracy theory and go to a "Conspiracy Theory" related site.  Stop with the BS here.

 

[1feral1]

Hey George, WRT tamouh, just remember the word poser, which can be substituted with dog turd as required. He even has the mods patience running thin.

His credibility is close to zero. His hidden agenda is about to 'suicide bomb' in his own face, he'll give himself enough rope sooner or later.

We must be patient.

Cold ones,

Wes

 

[couchcommander]

I don't think Israel bent anything backward, they're still in violation of all UN resolutions out there.

.... and the Arab nations that viciously attacked them in '48 and '49 in violation of a "UN Resolution" for the land in '47?

Listen, quite frankly I am tired of supporters of either side trying to claim "legitimacy" to the land. Sorry Arabs, the Jews were there a few thousand years before you were. Sorry Jews, you were forced out in 135 AD. The Arabs have since made it their home.

In the end Israel is there. Period. It's not going anywhere. The Arab states have tried to remove it, they have failed. They need to stop whining about it and pretending to be the victims of the entire debacle.

Israel isn't a victim either. That state was founded on the homes of countless families - wouldn't you be a little peeved?

What's the reality of it? No one is going anywhere. Start dealing with it - or keep killing each other. It's up to them, really.

My .02 anywho.

 

[paracowboy]

I don't think Israel bent anything backward, they're still in violation of all UN resolutions out there.

UN resolutions put in place by nations who are anti-semitic by nature, or were attampting to curry favour with Arab nations to keep oil prices down, were attempting to make sales to Arab countires, or were simply pawns of the Soviet Union and were being used in the Soviet-US 3rd World War. The League Of Nations is a pathetic joke and has no authority, or legitimacy. It is comprised of autocracies, and staffed by criminals. It's "armies" are slavers, rapists, and thieves. Don't come here, HERE, where many members have served under the UN flag of piracy and incompetence, and try to wave that banner.

These are Israeli army claims regarding red cross vehicles (or red crescent), not verifiable by any 3rd party reliable source and therefore i'll not dispute them or agree on them.

I don't care what you'll dispute. I have stated a fact verified by soldiers I trust. 

 

[Nemo888]

I think the big thing driving the Palestinian/Israeli conflict towards settlement is demographics. Same as Northern Ireland. The Palestinian population is growing at a much faster rate than the Jewish one and will eventually outnumber them. So Palestinians having their own land became inevitable. They can't keep that many people in their borders for an unlimited amount of time without giving them the rights of citizens. Israelis are very pragmatic, but to be honest they don't "bend over backwards" for anyone.

 

[tomahawk6]

The real problem is that the PA is a terrorist organization mascarading as a legitimate government.
As such they dont have an economic policy.They dont have a trade policy except in weapons. Until they transition from trying to destroy Israel to trying to improve the lives of their people through economic development. Right now the west bank and Gaza are an economic basket case with no economic future for anyone. As a state the west bank is not economically viable.

 

[Nemo888]

So I guess they need lawyers, tax collectors and bureaucrats. Generally all the things we hate,....

Can we send them ours?

 

[tomahawk6]

Actually they have all of the above.

 

[Nemo888]

Shhhhhhhh, I already told them they were going  ;D