Somehow a Fitness Thread from a "Kiwi shoe polish" Thread

[Quirky]

I've no experience in th RCAF so I won't pretend to comment on what could work for them.

Just do a modified version of the NHL combine test. Most of us are on a hockey scholarship in the CAF anyway.

 

[OldSolduer]

Just do a modified version of the NHL combine test. Most of us are on a hockey scholarship in the CAF anyway.

please get a grip on reality. Very few CAF members are no where near those levels.

 

[Furniture]

Just a pedantic point, the Force test prepares no one for war. We spend months working people up before we send them into SDAs (Special Duty Areas). The Force test is a physical fitness test. While part of it is not the sum total.

As for the UoS and all that jazz, the sticking point is finding a practical application for the different stages of the Force test. And unless you are a green weenie chances are not much of it applies to you and it's just another nauseating task we have to complete every year.

Hence why I would suggest for the RCN some form of Fireman's test. It has excellent practical application and, as you and I can both attest, bunker gear, Dragger, a charged firehose will test anyone's fitness. Throw in some CASEVAC and ladder climbs and you have yourself a pretty sweet little fitness test, that's also providing some reasonable applications that will help to express to th participant that this is not just an exercise in nuisance it's also part of being a sailor.

I've no experience in th RCAF so I won't pretend to comment on what could work for them. But having time as a green weenie myself and a navy puke; and purple I can safely express that the Force test is pointless. So pointless even the Army went and put their own Army spin on it.

The FORCE test means that every member is minimally prepared for the physical efforts required of members in war. Which is the entire point of UoS as well. It's not to prepare all members to participate in a dismounted patrol in the mountains, or build a bridge. When we do WUPS for a mission we train is specific tasks for the mission, not general physical wellness.

As for practical application of the FORCE test in an RCN environment, that's pretty easy if you think past the use of sandbags. The whole point of the sandbags is to have a cheap, easy to manage, single standard for the entire CAF. I think people get hung up on the physical actions, and forget what the actions are testing. The test simply proves that you can move yourself, and a moderate amount of weight, around sufficiently well do the basic tasks expected of a CAF member on tasking/deployment.

As for the elements of the test itself:

20m Rushes: Force protection is a part of RCN life, if members can't move from cover to cover in a reasonable fashion how can they be expected to defend the ship or the jetty the ship is alongside? Just because we haven't had an active shooter at an RCN ship yet does not mean it can't happen. It's a larger stretch than the other tests, but this test is also more of the general fitness test as well.

Sandbag lift: Storing ship, storing ammo, moving stores inside the ship, or moving AFFF cans during a fire.

Intermittent Loaded Shuttles: Moving AFFF in a fire, moving around in bunker gear with Drager, or moving charged hoses while in bunker gear.

Sandbag Drag: Moving a wounded sailor during a fire, or other emergency.

I don't see how adding bunker gear, and using hoses would make the test more valid. We have other evolutions for testing firefighting skills. Conflating RCN with just firefighting is also not helpful, as there are lots of shore based and purple jobs that RCN members are expected to do. The CAF tends to lean a bit too JArmy, but that doesn't mean all things CAF are JArmy.

 

[Quirky]

please get a grip on reality. Very few CAF members are no where near those levels.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The FORCE test means that every member is minimally prepared for the physical efforts required of members in war. Which is the entire point of UoS as well. It's not to prepare all members to participate in a dismounted patrol in the mountains, or build a bridge. When we do WUPS for a mission we train is specific tasks for the mission, not general physical wellness.

As for practical application of the FORCE test in an RCN environment, that's pretty easy if you think past the use of sandbags. The whole point of the sandbags is to have a cheap, easy to manage, single standard for the entire CAF. I think people get hung up on the physical actions, and forget what the actions are testing. The test simply proves that you can move yourself, and a moderate amount of weight, around sufficiently well do the basic tasks expected of a CAF member on tasking/deployment.

As for the elements of the test itself:

20m Rushes: Force protection is a part of RCN life, if members can't move from cover to cover in a reasonable fashion how can they be expected to defend the ship or the jetty the ship is alongside? Just because we haven't had an active shooter at an RCN ship yet does not mean it can't happen. It's a larger stretch than the other tests, but this test is also more of the general fitness test as well.

Sandbag lift: Storing ship, storing ammo, moving stores inside the ship, or moving AFFF cans during a fire.

Intermittent Loaded Shuttles: Moving AFFF in a fire, moving around in bunker gear with Drager, or moving charged hoses while in bunker gear.

Sandbag Drag: Moving a wounded sailor during a fire, or other emergency.

I don't see how adding bunker gear, and using hoses would make the test more valid. We have other evolutions for testing firefighting skills. Conflating RCN with just firefighting is also not helpful, as there are lots of shore based and purple jobs that RCN members are expected to do. The CAF tends to lean a bit too JArmy, but that doesn't mean all things CAF are JArmy.

“We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training.”​

― Archilochus

The FORCE test is a good, standard, consistent, basic test that can be applied across the CAF... for peacetime requirements. However there's probably a good argument for implementing more specific tests by trade/ occupation as required, for battle readiness.

The fitness requirements for a combat arms soldier in battle are not the same as a non-combat arms member, for example, so that should be recognized somehow in the administration of different types of standard testing.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The FORCE test means that every member is minimally prepared for the physical efforts required of members in war. Which is the entire point of UoS as well. It's not to prepare all members to participate in a dismounted patrol in the mountains, or build a bridge. When we do WUPS for a mission we train is specific tasks for the mission, not general physical wellness.

As for practical application of the FORCE test in an RCN environment, that's pretty easy if you think past the use of sandbags. The whole point of the sandbags is to have a cheap, easy to manage, single standard for the entire CAF. I think people get hung up on the physical actions, and forget what the actions are testing. The test simply proves that you can move yourself, and a moderate amount of weight, around sufficiently well do the basic tasks expected of a CAF member on tasking/deployment.

As for the elements of the test itself:

20m Rushes: Force protection is a part of RCN life, if members can't move from cover to cover in a reasonable fashion how can they be expected to defend the ship or the jetty the ship is alongside? Just because we haven't had an active shooter at an RCN ship yet does not mean it can't happen. It's a larger stretch than the other tests, but this test is also more of the general fitness test as well.

Sandbag lift: Storing ship, storing ammo, moving stores inside the ship, or moving AFFF cans during a fire.

Intermittent Loaded Shuttles: Moving AFFF in a fire, moving around in bunker gear with Drager, or moving charged hoses while in bunker gear.

Sandbag Drag: Moving a wounded sailor during a fire, or other emergency.

I don't see how adding bunker gear, and using hoses would make the test more valid. We have other evolutions for testing firefighting skills. Conflating RCN with just firefighting is also not helpful, as there are lots of shore based and purple jobs that RCN members are expected to do. The CAF tends to lean a bit too JArmy, but that doesn't mean all things CAF are JArmy.

With respect I think you're reaching pretty hard to find practical connections from force test elements to practical RCN application. To me what we are doing now is too easy and just something people can go through the motions to complete.

Arguably the most physically demanding point a sailor may have in their career is firefighting. Agreed, we have other DC scenarios but there is a reason we practice firefighting the most. It's the simply the most physically demanding.

A version of a firefighters fitness test would provide a practical avenue to evaluate a persons and fitness.

As for those who don't go to sea in RCN uniforms; musicians ? MPs ? TDOs and PSOs ? Am I missing someone ? I would recommend removing the RCN uniform from those occupations or perhaps they can continue with the Force test.

 

[dimsum]

With respect I think you're reaching pretty hard to find practical connections from force test elements to practical RCN application. To me what we are doing now is too easy and just something people can go through the motions to complete.

Arguably the most physically demanding point a sailor may have in their career is firefighting. Agreed, we have other DC scenarios but there is a reason we practice firefighting the most. It's the simply the most physically demanding.

A version of a firefighters fitness test would provide a practical avenue to evaluate a persons and fitness.

Or, have the modified FF fitness test as a “deployable” test for the RCN. Folks like Lawyers, clerks, supply, etc who aren’t necessarily RCN DEU but may go to sea will do it in addition to, or instead of, the FORCE test.

I’m RCAF but when I went to Afghanistan, I had to do the BFT because my job there wasn’t in an aircraft.

As for those who don't go to sea in RCN uniforms; musicians ? MPs ? TDOs and PSOs ? Am I missing someone ? I would recommend removing the RCN uniform from those occupations or perhaps they can continue with the Force test.

Now you’ve done it. How dare you consider disbanding (heh) the Nader, Stad, NAVRES, and various NAVRES unit bands?!

 

[Infanteer]

Hence why I would suggest for the RCN some form of Fireman's test. It has excellent practical application and, as you and I can both attest, bunker gear, Dragger, a charged firehose will test anyone's fitness. Throw in some CASEVAC and ladder climbs and you have yourself a pretty sweet little fitness test, that's also providing some reasonable applications that will help to express to th participant that this is not just an exercise in nuisance it's also part of being a sailor.

I've no experience in th RCAF so I won't pretend to comment on what could work for them. But having time as a green weenie myself and a navy puke; and purple I can safely express that the Force test is pointless. So pointless even the Army went and put their own Army spin on it.

Should be a test with an annual requirement to continue to collect sea pay/days counted for the SSI.

RCAF could have something similar but with a series of hotel cleaning tasks which assume the cleaning staff was a no show for the day. Quirky could break a sweat changing the sheets on a queen sized bed for time....

 

[daftandbarmy]

Should be a test with an annual requirement to continue to collect sea pay/days counted for the SSI.

RCAF could have something similar but with a series of hotel cleaning tasks which assume the cleaning staff was a no show for the day. Quirky could break a sweat changing the sheets on a queen sized bed for time....

 

[childs56]

Should be a test with an annual requirement to continue to collect sea pay/days counted for the SSI.

RCAF could have something similar but with a series of hotel cleaning tasks which assume the cleaning staff was a no show for the day. Quirky could break a sweat changing the sheets on a queen sized bed for time....

lol, or they could put them up in a 2 star hotel or better yet a H Hut barracks.

 

[Haggis]

lol, or they could put them up in a 2 star hotel or better yet a H Hut barracks.

3 star. Parking across the street. Only one luggage cart and no working elevators. On the upside, they have a suite with an awesome view - on the 13th floor.

 

[brihard]

3 star. Parking across the street. Only one luggage cart and no working elevators. On the upside, they have a suite with an awesome view - on the 13th floor.

That’s 427. The rest of the squadrons only have to lug it up to 8.

 

[Furniture]

With respect I think you're reaching pretty hard to find practical connections from force test elements to practical RCN application. To me what we are doing now is too easy and just something people can go through the motions to complete.

Arguably the most physically demanding point a sailor may have in their career is firefighting. Agreed, we have other DC scenarios but there is a reason we practice firefighting the most. It's the simply the most physically demanding.

A version of a firefighters fitness test would provide a practical avenue to evaluate a persons and fitness.

As for those who don't go to sea in RCN uniforms; musicians ? MPs ? TDOs and PSOs ? Am I missing someone ? I would recommend removing the RCN uniform from those occupations or perhaps they can continue with the Force test.

From my perspective you're reaching pretty hard to find the FORCE test not connected to RCN tasks.

As for the idea of a RCN specific test, sure... but you'd still need to do a FORCE test, just like the CA does it's FORCE, and the actual FORCE test. The CAF is a single service, with a single UoS, and has a single set of bonified physical requirements. The FORCE test evaluates based on those requirements, anything beyond that isn't defendable against a charter challenge. So an imagined RCN test would be no harder than a FORCE test, just with different, more expensive, props.

The CAF is being forced to stop medically retaining people to maintain UoS, there is no way it will introduce new avenues to challenge UoS via an RCN specific test, that would realistically accomplish nothing beyond what a FORCE test does already.

 

[dimsum]

lol, or they could put them up in a 2 star hotel or better yet a H Hut barracks.

Everyone makes fun of the Air Force until you’re in a plane where the pilots say they’re too tired to safely fly.

 

[Halifax Tar]

From my perspective you're reaching pretty hard to find the FORCE test not connected to RCN tasks.

As for the idea of a RCN specific test, sure... but you'd still need to do a FORCE test, just like the CA does it's FORCE, and the actual FORCE test. The CAF is a single service, with a single UoS, and has a single set of bonified physical requirements. The FORCE test evaluates based on those requirements, anything beyond that isn't defendable against a charter challenge. So an imagined RCN test would be no harder than a FORCE test, just with different, more expensive, props.

The CAF is being forced to stop medically retaining people to maintain UoS, there is no way it will introduce new avenues to challenge UoS via an RCN specific test, that would realistically accomplish nothing beyond what a FORCE test does already.

Either way the Force test isn't going anywhere, as far as I know. I simply think a more practical and applicable test of fitness for a sailor would be some version of a Fireman's test.

I don't really have much more to add than that.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Just a pedantic point, the Force test prepares no 8one for war. We spend months working people up before we send them into SDAs (Special Duty Areas). The Force test is a physical fitness test. While part of it is not the sum total.

As for the UoS and all that jazz, the sticking point is finding a practical application for the different stages of the Force test. And unless you are a green weenie chances are not much of it applies to you and it's just another nauseating task we have to complete every year.

Hence why I would suggest for the RCN some form of Fireman's test. It has excellent practical application and, as you and I can both attest, bunker gear, Dragger, a charged firehose will test anyone's fitness. Throw in some CASEVAC and ladder climbs and you have yourself a pretty sweet little fitness test, that's also providing some reasonable applications that will help to express to th participant that this is not just an exercise in nuisance it's also part of being a sailor.

I've no experience in th RCAF so I won't pretend to comment on what could work for them. But having time as a green weenie myself and a navy puke; and purple I can safely express that the Force test is pointless. So pointless even the Army went and put their own Army spin on it.

Let me give you a hand:

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

With respect I think you're reaching pretty hard to find practical connections from force test elements to practical RCN application. To me what we are doing now is too easy and just something people can go through the motions to complete.

Arguably the most physically demanding point a sailor may have in their career is firefighting. Agreed, we have other DC scenarios but there is a reason we practice firefighting the most. It's the simply the most physically demanding.

A version of a firefighters fitness test would provide a practical avenue to evaluate a persons and fitness.

As for those who don't go to sea in RCN uniforms; musicians ? MPs ? TDOs and PSOs ? Am I missing someone ? I would recommend removing the RCN uniform from those occupations or perhaps they can continue with the Force test.

Clearance Divers.... ew shots fired!

 

[Halifax Tar]

Clearance Divers.... ew shots fired!

As a PO1 CLD told me when I expected him to muster his SCA, all they do is blow bubbles.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Navy's fitness test should be the following:

1. Drink/chug a 26oz of Rum
2. Sleep for 1 hour
3. Report for Duty watch drunk/hungover
4. Receive brief, then execute a storing of ship, ammo transfer and then do a DC exercise.

If you can successfully do all of that without barfing/collapsing.... You are FORCE Test Certified.

You get a Gold/Platinum if you don't take any naps and start drinking again at the end of your duty shift.

 

[ModlrMike]

The CAF is a single service, with a single UoS, and has a single set of bonified physical requirements. The FORCE test evaluates based on those requirements, anything beyond that isn't defendable against a charter challenge.

This is the piece that people are missing. The FORCE was designed from the ground up. The foundational documents being the BFORs and the Common Military Task Standards. Any fitness evaluation the CAF uses has to be defensible to challenge. That's why even during the EXPRES days, if you failed the BFT or Army Fitness Test, you still only had to complete the EXPRES. Any service specific fitness requirements would have to be consistent with the FORCE, and failure could not result in punitive, or even administrative measures. That is not to say that certain courses can not have fitness standards that exceed the FORCE, but there's no entitlement to be placed on course, so there's little recourse for not meeting the standard.