Posted by "John Gow" <jgow@home.com> on Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:22:37 -0500
An interesting "staff" problem on my MWO Qualifying Course in ‘87...
"You are a Platoon OC, with a full 30 man platoon in Aldershot Nova Scotia.
You have an unlimited number of qualified drivers in your platoon. You
have an MLVW, a couple one tons...its Thursday 1700 and on Saturday, at
1200, the company is having a Xmas Party.
You must:
Pick up 60 six foot folding tables in Halifax.
Pick up 300 stacking chairs in Digby
Pick up a quantity of party favours in Fredricton
Pick up hot rations from the caterer in St John, in hayboxes or modern
equivalent at 0600 Saturday.
It takes three hours to set the system up, with twenty four workers.
Formulate your orders....
Of course, like the idiots we were, we laboured long into the night, with
Sgts A, B and C 2IC‘s X, Y and Z WO1, Privates and Corporals 1 through
24...and belaboured this through credit cards for gas, quarters, rations,
POL points and so on, until, after a long unsleeping night, we saw how it
could be done...
And, so, in the morning, gave a long and interesting discourse of an "O"
Group...detailing precise tasks to individuals....
The Course OC, laughed, threw down his clip board stood and said:
"Gentlemen, you are excellent NCO‘s that can do damn near anything...bu a Lt
would say to his WO....wait for it...
"Make it so"
And there, in fact, is the difference between chalk and cheese....
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Schepens"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> You just can‘t have one without the other. For the most part, I agree
very
> strongly with John‘s comments. NCOs will almost always have more
experience
> than the officers they are teemed with. Officer training tends to be
mostly
> decision making and planning. NCOs make the decisions and plans happen.
>
> Now some of you out there, who have worked in staffs and I have as well
> will take offence. However, it is how I see it.
>
> Don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Gow
> To:
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
>
>
> > Pretty much as you say, Don. Been thinking about this for a couple
hours
> > now.
> >
> > Its tough to make Sgt the liklihood of a member entering the service,
> > staying around, staying out of trouble, getting the courses, the unit
> having
> > the vacancies, and attracting the attention of the members of the
> promotion
> > board sure load the odds against a private today or thirty years ago.
> >
> > That entry member, too, will tend to reflect the light of what he was
> > shown,nadvertantly or otherwise the leadership by example process.
> Very,
> > ver few individuals, though there are some, have that core personality
to
> > come through a "mess" and become champions....though it does on
occaision
> > happen.
> >
> > So the first thing a NCM needs is a role model to pattern on nd learn
> from.
> > He gets this from fellow NCM types, not officers...as he is seldom
likely
> to
> > be addressed by so lofty a rank as a Captain, let alone a Major.
> >
> > Once he has chance to be a MCpl, he usually has the chance to have a
> > modicum of training, where he could act/reac somewhat on his own,
> > successfully not denying that Cpls and Ptes can do this too, just not
so
> > reliably...and here is where he can speak with a Lt/2Lt and offer
advice
> of
> > one sort or another.
> >
> > As he progresses to Sgt, he gets some rotection from the 2Lt/Lt/Capt in
> Mil
> > Law, rightfully, because his opinion and experience are starting to
really
> > count, and the aforementioned ranks are sometimes not typically, with
> > Captains, but sometimes even so. At WO, he has the "right" my word,
or
> > thought to expect the CO‘s trust and support. If the Pl CO gets blown
> > away, he can fight a platoon, and is likely cognisant if not skilled in
> > every aspect of the individual jobs in that platoon. You are right he
> lost
> > his trainee...the Lt. He takes the Lt‘s command and explains them to
the
> > men. e comforts and advises his officer and on occaision, baits him a
> fair
> > bit too, but that‘s part of growing the officer
> >
> > When he becomes a CQ, he has a Major‘s absolute confidence as well as
the
> > CO‘s, the RQ‘s, etc, etc, and is placed to be able to tell the officer
> > "No". Its done tactfully, almost always respectfully, and ALWAYS for a
> good
> > reason. He‘s still training officers, and, as Danny points out,
> protecting
> > the men.
> >
> > The NCO has the experience of the ranks. The officers usually do not.
> Both
> > are leadership positions. Officers ten to fall a little harder, and
have
> > less scope to do things on a personal level, bound as they are to a
> standard
> > that becomes a little more skewed at NCO level.
> >
> > Readers can o doubt see that this is a difficult and complex
relationship.
> > I‘ve by no means more than scratched the surface, and have not given
> remarks
> > a great deal of reflection, and been purely PRes Infantry in my scope.
> > Certainly there will be different wrinkles with the zips, the drop
shorts,
> > the beavers and the "rob all serving comrades" types...how one deals
with
> it
> > is an individual thing in some aspects, a personal thing with officers
by
> > type...and we will admit there are different types...and units, and
> > tasks...and so on.
> >
> > So I‘ll kck the ball out onto the playing field and see what responses
> come
> > out. And yes, NCO‘s are friends with Officers, and vice versa, a truly
> > symbiotic relationship....
> >
> > John
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Donald Schepens"
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 9:14 PM
> > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> >
> >
> > > John, you‘re so modest.
> > >
> > > Actually, I‘m not sure what to say a first. So much of the
> relatioship
> > is
> > > driven by the personalities not only of the people but also of the
units
> > > involved. there very much has to be a bit of give and take.
Officers,
> > for
> > > the most part, are hired to lead. Senior NCOs including WO manage
the
> > > process I know that this is heretical, but its what I believe. The
> NCOs
> > > make sure everything, including the other ranks dating myself are
> ready
> > to
> > > deliver the product.
> > >
> > > I‘m going to leave it there and wait for other comments.
> > >
> > > Don
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: John Gow
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:26 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > >
> > >
> > > > If you‘d be willing to wait until the end of the month when Mike is
> > again
> > > > more vailable and accessible, I am quite sure he could give you the
DS
> > > > solution from the Officer/System side at least.
> > > >
> > > > I can try and come up with a response from the NCO side, but it
would
> > like
> > > > to take me a few days before I pressed SEND...
> > > >
> > > > Don Schepens will have a unique view, having gone from Private
through
> > > Sgt,
> > > > and on up to CO/LCol...in addition to bing a **** of as lot brighter
> > than
> > > > me....
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Martin Woods"
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:44 PM
> > > > Subject: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > All:
> > > > > Can anyone come up with any written references on the Sr
> > NCO/WO/Officer
> > > > > relationship? I find this to be a growing problem in the CF.
> > > References
> > > > > from either the Officers or the NCM‘s point of view would both be
> > > helpful.
> > > > >
> > > > > thanks
> > > > > MGW
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