Standing Contingency Task Force: A Canadian Marine Unit?

[Cloud Cover]

Anybody else feel the Aussies seem a little over-optimistic with their proposed price for two units of that size , calibre and capability?  Or is there no such thing as regional appeasement in Australia?

 

[Sam69]

Is there any sort of chance that the CDS will get the BHS instead of us getting JSS? If so that will leave the navy without any form of reliable AOR support in a few years.....

It is my understanding that it is the CDS's intent to get the BHS as well as the JSS.

Sam

 

[FSTO]

Is there any sort of chance that the CDS will get the BHS instead of us getting JSS? If so that will leave the navy without any form of reliable AOR support in a few years.....

The CDS said to me personally (Q&A at a public forum in Esquimalt  ;D) that the Amphib will complement not replace the JSS. A couple of other things make me optimistic, the Liberals have been absolutely silent when the CDS made his "we kill people" comment, due to the GST the feds are absolutely rolling in cash, and the three services are working together on this project.

 

[Good2Golf]

As Sam and others noted, I think it is consistent with the Chief's intent to operate a complementary amphib force that has a big amphib (along the lines of an LPD or Rotterdam or the Spanish ship) as well as a JSS to support the specialized SCTF package.  I do believe that a future variant of the EH-101 would be ideally suited for life as the SCTF heavy lifter (barring any requirement to support an MSTF or the SOG), having a "big flat ship" and a "big fat ship" and having rotary lift assets stay on the big fat ship until it's time to marshall over to the big flat ship to pick up the troops.  Think of kind of an "Atlantic Conveyor" sending HC.2 Mk2 Chinooks over to the troops ships (like Sir Galahad) to bring the Commandos and their eqpt into theatre...although less the Exocets that destroyed Atlantic Conveyor and 3 of the 4 Chinooks aboard and hitting the Sir Galahad with the RM 3 Cdo on board...etc...  (interesting anecdote about "BN", the sole surviving RAF Chinook in the Flakland War)

Cheers,
Duey

 

[navyguy]

With the chance these ships might come into being and the fact that the CF is trying to add 5000 new soldiers does anybody think we could see the creation of a CDN Marine REG or Battalion.

It would be a cool  concept.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

With the chance these ships might come into being and the fact that the CF is trying to add 5000 new soldiers does anybody think we could see the creation of a CDN Marine REG or Battalion.

No

 

[Cloud Cover]

I read in the Toronto Star yesterday that the BHS will not come about until the 2012-2017 time frame. I am presuming this means new or used. If the reporting is accurate, is this a setback for the SCTF, or can we hitch a ride with someone?

Cheers

 

[Allen]

I read that as well, plus I read another story earlier that said DND wanted something by 2007. So maybe they're looking at an "interim" solution (e.g. transfer of some old steamer which is paying off) eventually to be replaced by a long-term one (i.e. new-build).

Hitch a ride? Why not? We've been doing it for 35 years, what's another decade?

 

[Good2Golf]

I read in the Toronto Star yesterday that the BHS will not come about until the 2012-2017 time frame. I am presuming this means new or used. If the reporting is accurate, is this a setback for the SCTF, or can we hitch a ride with someone?

Cheers

S-calss conversion could happen a lot faster if there's gov't will...Maersk, Hapag-Lloyd, etc... all could put mod S-class on HMCS pay much sooner than 2012-2017, methinks...

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Cloud Cover]

Unfortunately, this POS is coming available for a bargain price.

HMS Argus.

Crew ~80 + 140 aircrew.

 

[Infanteer]

Despite having a fascination with Russian equipment, CASR has a good article on the subject:

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/mp-sealift-rotterdam.htm

 

[Cloud Cover]

First we need a trainer to prove the "theory." HMS Argus was designed as a trainer for the FAA, plus a few other auxilliary roles. Mechanically, its a POS. We can pick it up dirt cheap i.e. next to nothing.

Our future LPD or LHA will be built or converted domestically - anything else is politically untenable.

The main attractionof this ship to the Navy, besides costs, is that it can be crewed by civies and reservists with only marginal reg force participation while the Air Force and Army sort themselves out for this sort of thing. The Navy would also likely staff the ship with 3 and 4 ringers along with tactical development types to figure out what works and what doesn't for our own amphibious needs. It makes little difference to the FFG's and DDH right now what type of ship it is- they can practice protecting the thing even if the ship is not the final product.

If the ship wasn't so riddled with problems, it might actually be a good idea to seed the SCTF with it.

cheers    

 

[Good2Golf]

Wowza, that is one ungainly piece of kit, W601!  Tell me that's not a smoke stack on the aft starboard quater! That thing truly has British design deep in its blood...  ;D

I think I'd happily wait 18 months to see Hapag-Lloyd's Shanghai Express have a well deck welded in and painted grey. 

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

S-calss conversion could happen a lot faster if there's gov't will...Maersk, Hapag-Lloyd, etc... all could put mod S-class on HMCS pay much sooner than 2012-2017, methinks...

Cheers,
Duey

Something was on the go with Maersk a couple of months ago...I don't know where it sits, though.  SCTF is supposed to reach Initial Operating Capability much sooner than 2012, so they'll need something.  I doubt, given the timelines, that new build is a viable option.

As for Argus...  In defence of the Royal Navy, it isn't a naval vessel.  Instead, Argus is a "Royal Fleet Auxillary" ship used for aviation training.  http://www.navynews.co.uk/ships/argus.asp

 

[Cloud Cover]

Yes it is a stack- likely the same deck/stack configuration as the JSS will have, although the JSS will have a much shorter flight deck. This ship was slated to be replaced by a dedicated and more modern design for it's secondary role as a casualty treatment ship. That project was shelved, and the ship was then supposed to stay in service until 2020. Now it turns out the Brits are looking at a fitting the casualty role into an LSD (aux) or perhaps even an RFA auxilliary ro-ro - perhaps by 2007/2008. [does that time frame sound familiar or what?]There is an RN project team looking at those options as of this past September.  

If the Brits come up with a plan to house/spread casualty treatment amongst other platforms, and if they decied they can do without the limited forward avaition support this ship provides [as it did during Op Telic], they will gladly ditch the thing for a song and dance. Given the fact that they are now looking at some more LPD's [maybe even another LPH] they could do without the flight deck space for the 5 or 6 year gap. Interesting the larger Scheldt design comes up as a possibility for the additional LPD's-  a design we might also consider for a more permanent solution around the same time.  

Keep in mind that this is just me "thinking out loud" - and nothing more. It's the crew size that makes it attractive, and the fact that it has already been militarized.

Considering we would likely never take it anywhere for at least a few years [other than up North], in retrospect it might not be a bad temporary acquisition to train on- nothing more.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Yes it is a stack- likely the same deck/stack configuration as the JSS will have, although the JSS will have a much shorter flight deck. This ship was slated to be replaced by a dedicated and more modern design for it's secondary role as a casualty treatment ship. That project was shelved, and the ship was then supposed to stay in service until 2020. Now it turns out the Brits are looking at a fitting the casualty role into an LSD (aux) or perhaps even an RFA auxilliary ro-ro - perhaps by 2007/2008. [does that time frame sound familiar or what?]There is an RN project team looking at those options as of this past September.  

If the Brits come up with a plan to house/spread casualty treatment amongst other platforms, and if they decied they can do without the limited forward avaition support this ship provides [as it did during Op Telic], they will gladly ditch the thing for a song and dance. Given the fact that they are now looking at some more LPD's [maybe even another LPH] they could do without the flight deck space for the 5 or 6 year gap. Interesting the larger Scheldt design comes up as a possibility for the additional LPD's-  a design we might also consider for a more permanent solution around the same time.  

Keep in mind that this is just me "thinking out loud" - and nothing more. It's the crew size that makes it attractive, and the fact that it has already been militarized.

Considering we would likely never take it anywhere for at least a few years [other than up North], in retrospect it might not be a bad temporary acquisition to train on- nothing more.

Very true - I wasn't aware of the plans for Argus...very interesting!  The RN appears to be proceeding down the "transformation" path very rapidly, so we may be able to pick up some valuable lessons as they proceed.   In the "thinking out loud" department, my guess is that we'll see the JSS as a new-build ship constructed here in Canada, partially as a sop to the regional development crowd.   The BHS, however, may well end up being a Maersk-ish container conversion - sooner rather than later - if only to get the SCTF up and running.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Incidentally, the ship can support 5 Chinooks or 5 Sea Kings and it has a ro-ro ramp that mexe floats could saunter up to. It can also supposedly accommodate 750 troops in emergency situations.

Mexe Floats- self powered calm water raft for the very brave. [also contemplated for JSS, I think]

 

[armyvern]

Mexe Floats- self powered calm water raft for the very brave. [also contemplated for JSS, I think]

I. hopefully, will not be stepping onto one one these contraptions anytime soon. I'm all for the current RAS. anybody?

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/photarch2/tribaor.jpg

 

[Kirkhill]

THIS Argus W601?

Navy League article Aug 2001

The 20-year-old Royal Fleet Auxiliary RFA Argus, a converted container ship, is currently being refitted, and one of the options under consideration by the DPA is making her available as a 90-bed PCRS by using a modular hospital. There is some risk in extending the life of the Argus, which has already had to be stiffened to rectify major cracks in her hull.

http://www.navyleague.org/sea_power/aug_01_17.php

I remember seeing other reports about this but can't find the references just now.

Might be better if we waited a bit and got you a boat without patched over cracks.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Thats the one. They patched parts of the flight deck with up to 5' of concrete. It went into refit a while back [for the PCRS upgrade] but the treatment equipment can be removed and put into another ship [if necessary].  More a question of finding new space than preserving old space.

Cheers