Steamers

[Baz]

Did a search, there is not a generic thread on the steamers…

I was reading an old Crowsnest issue (the magazine of the RCN) and it said the six MacKenzies would be built as DDEs and then all 6 converted to DDHs. As it turned out the last two were built as DDHs and then all other 4 never converted. Why not?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Not what I was suspecting from reading the title.

 

[Baz]

Not what I was suspecting from reading the title.

I didn’t really think that through did I.

You would have thought that would have been a joke when we were sailing on them, but I don’t remember it being one. It just comes so naturally… we were bobbing around the ocean on a hot steamer…

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Did a search, there is not a generic thread on the steamers…

I was reading an old Crowsnest issue (the magazine of the RCN) and it said the six MacKenzies would be built as DDEs and then all 6 converted to DDHs. As it turned out the last two were built as DDHs and then all other 4 never converted. Why not?

Money?

 

[Baz]

Money?

That’s the obvious, but was it that simple?

It was weird the amount of optimism they seemed to have. It was an issue from around 1964, I wonder if they had any idea what the future held…

 

[Eaglelord17]

That’s the obvious, but was it that simple?

It was weird the amount of optimism they seemed to have. It was an issue from around 1964, I wonder if they had any idea what the future held…

If I had to guess it likely was a sacrifice of unification. The navy lost the newly refurbished aircraft carriers due to unification, losing those would likely be a minor issue in comparison.

 

[Baz]

If I had to guess it likely was a sacrifice of unification. The navy lost the newly refurbished aircraft carriers due to unification, losing those would likely be a minor issue in comparison.

I guess that’s what I’m wondering. When they lost the Bonnie, you would think they’d want more small decks. It wasn’t the impending arrival of the 280s, since that was already planned.

Or maybe without the Bonnie they didn’t need as many escorts, so they relegated the NacKenzie’s to the training role?

I wonder, was the Bonnie the heart of an ASW Action Group, or did they intend her to escort convoys? If the latter, they’d still need the escorts.

My understanding is the yard did Bonnie no favours in the refit… she didn’t come out in very good shape. The retirement wasn’t as simple as some would think. Navy shooter, what do you know?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I remember as a kid touring the Limber well and gun turrets, absolutely marvelling over the mortars. Wonder also why they did not make the 3"/70 common through the fleet for forward guns? I remember them being referred to as 50,000 parts sometimes working together.

They were such gorgeous ships.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Bt

I guess that’s what I’m wondering. When they lost the Bonnie, you would think they’d want more small decks. It wasn’t the impending arrival of the 280s, since that was already planned.

Or maybe without the Bonnie they didn’t need as many escorts, so they relegated the NacKenzie’s to the training role?

I wonder, was the Bonnie the heart of an ASW Action Group, or did they intend her to escort convoys? If the latter, they’d still need the escorts.

My understanding is the yard did Bonnie no favours in the refit… she didn’t come out in very good shape. The retirement wasn’t as simple as some would think. Navy shooter, what do you know?

between the Annapolis class and the DDH 280 class is the missing General Purpose Frigates. That could be the answer to why the Mackenzies were never converted.

 

[Baz]

Bt
between the Annapolis class and the DDH 280 class is the missing General Purpose Frigates. That could be the answer to why the Mackenzies were never converted.

Possibly, but weren’t the GPFs the initial plan that actually became the 280s? I don’t think the design of the 280’s resulted from either not modifying the MacKenzie’s or getting rid of Bonnie.

What I’ve read is that in the early ‘60s a balanced fleet was view as ASROC on some ships and helos on others, but then a lengthy discussion was had about whether they needed balanced ASS forces or balanced general purpose forces.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I know a guy that I can ask about this…

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

It is more complicated than that.

First, the Mackenzie were not a 6 ships buy - they were a four ship buy.

Second, you have to remember that all St. Laurent were originally built as DDE's of the same pattern as the Mackenzie, but were later modified to a DDH pattern, after Assiniboine's trials as helicopter carrying destroyers (she was the test bed - not St. Laurent contrary to popular belief) if on the East Coast, or as IRE (Improved Restigouche class) if on the West Coast, because the money to convert them into DDH just wasn't there. For similar fiscal reasons, the Mackenzie's were not brought up at all from the original design as they were built while these "upgrades" to St Laurent's and Restigouche's were being made by way of refits. However, the last two ships ordered under this line of vessels, the Annapolis and Nipigon, were started after the St Laurent's mod to DDH and therefore, were built from the start as full blown DDH's (they were the only ones done that way - from the beginning and never refitted into the DDH class).

The article that puts them in the Mackenzie class are incorrect. Mackenzie was never envisaged as a 6 ships class.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

It is more complicated than that.

First, the Mackenzie were not a 6 ships buy - they were a four ship buy.

Second, you have to remember that all St. Laurent were originally built as DDE's of the same pattern as the Mackenzie, but were later modified to a DDH pattern, after Assiniboine's trials as helicopter carrying destroyers (she was the test bed - not St. Laurent contrary to popular belief) if on the East Coast, or as IRE (Improved Restigouche class) if on the West Coast, because the money to convert them into DDH just wasn't there. For similar fiscal reasons, the Mackenzie's were not brought up at all from the original design as they were built while these "upgrades" to St Laurent's and Restigouche's were being made by way of refits. However, the last two ships ordered under this line of vessels, the Annapolis and Nipigon, were started after the St Laurent's mod to DDH and therefore, were built from the start as full blown DDH's (they were the only ones done that way - from the beginning and never refitted into the DDH class).

The article that puts them in the Mackenzie class are incorrect. Mackenzie was never envisaged as a 6 ships class.

I dunno…multiple sources say that there were supposed to be 6 Mackenzies, but the last two became Annapolis class, which then were based on the St Laurent design, to save money.

 

[Baz]

I dunno…multiple sources say that there were supposed to be 6 Mackenzies, but the last two became Annapolis class, which then were based on the St Laurent design, to save money.

I’m pretty sure the Crowsnest I was reading, circa 1964, said a 6 ship buy, and they were being built at that time. I know for certain it said conversion after delivery.

I found all the Crownest’s at the Esquimalt museum online. I’ll see if I can find the right issue again.

I am starting to think Hellyer stirred the pot more than just unification and getting rid of Bonnie…