Stephane Dion wants immediate withdrawal "with honour"

[probum non poenitet]

Don't say you didn't see it coming ... it's Jack Layton 'Lite':

Shared in accordance with Fair Dealings provision of the Copyright Act. Shazam!

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics/story.html?id=b476faeb-cd0e-4567-95f2-0c56cb1d6375&k=35236

Jack Aubry, CanWest News Service; Ottawa Citizen
Published: Wednesday, November 22, 2006
OTTAWA - Liberal leadership contender Stephane Dion says Canada should withdraw its troops ''with honour'' from Afghanistan before 2009 because their current mission is ill-conceived and misguided.
In an interview with CanWest News Service, Dion said the current military mission is not making progress. But he quickly added any pull-out of troops would only occur after discussions with the other NATO countries involved in the military mission.
Highly critical of the mission, Dion's position seems to differentiate himself form the other three frontrunners Michael Ignatieff, Bob Rae and Gerard Kennedy in the Liberal leadership race.
''Canada must say: 'Look, we are very willing to work with you, to design something that makes sense, because I don't want to risk the life of our soldiers if we are not making progress','' said Dion.
The former intergovernmental affairs minister in the Chretien government said Harper blackmailed the House of Commons when he extended the mission by threatening an election unless the MPs approved it in a vote. Dion refused to put a deadline on any withdrawal, saying that would be a mistake.
''We need to involve the other nations much more. It is really sad what happened because Mr. harper last spring played the macho the one who will be able to carry us out of Afghanistan. He copied the speeches of Mr. Bush, I think President Bush should request copyright from these speeches,'' said Dion.
He blames Harper's leading role in Afghanistan for making the other NATO countries feel less involved than they perhaps planned, adding that Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor's recent request for others to do more in the war-torn country is ''a contradiction'' for the Canadian government.
Dion said his position is different from that of New Democratic Party Leader Jack Layton and the NDP because he would never act unilaterally.
''I would really try to work with the other countries. Canada does not act unilaterally and I will try, definitely, to work with them. Between a complete withdrawal and the mission the way it is designed, I want to think that there is something that makes sense,'' said Dion.
He warned if the current mission continues, there will not be progress in Afghanistan and the priority for Canadians will be to simply avoid casualties.
''That is to see all soldiers remain in a certain perimeter and become less and less involved with the population,'' he said.
Dion said the ''divisive'' prime minister had told Liberal Leader Bill Graham in the House that Canada would be able to intervene in other parts of the world, if necessary but that instead, Canadian peacekeepers posted on the West Bank were relocated to Afghanistan before hostilities broke out in the Middle East.
''So it doesn't seem that we have the capacity to intervene elsewhere. It is not certain we have the capacity to continue in this mission the way it is designed now, I understand from the last report I read,'' said Dion.
He said the situation in Afghanistan is more complex than presented by the Harper government, which views it as a battle with the Taliban.

''You have the Taliban, you have warlords, it is a complex situation. E and we need to work with the other nations to see if we can create a type of Marshall Plan like the one for Europe after the Second World War to be sure that the poppy can be used for licit activities. Otherwise I think it is very very difficult to make progress,'' said Dion.

During question period Tuesday, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Layton was ''on the wrong track'' by opposing the United Nations mandate the Canadian mission received. Layton had cited reports more and more Canadian reservists were needed to ''backfill for the inadequate preparations'' for the country's obligations in Afghanistan and experts that reported ''we are losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the Afghan people.''

O'Connor said his department has no problem recruiting people for the country's special forces, saying the Armed Forces had been dramatically reduced under the previous government. ''What we are doing now is we are being innovative. We are using community colleges, we are using training institutions, we are using retired military to help train in the skills of the military, but everybody who is trained by this means must be fully qualified before they are accepted in the classes,'' said O'Connor.

Ottawa Citizen

© CanWest News Service 2006

 

[Jarnhamar]

He's got my vote!

 

[Dirt Digger]

An alternative for those that see Jack as too free-wheeling with spending, but still want a little curruption in the system to go with their withdrawl. 

 

[Sig_Des]

A definition of honour could be:

Good name; reputation.

or

A source or cause of credit: was an honour to the profession.

I personally like this idiom:

honour bound
Under an obligation enforced by the ... integrity of the one obliged

IE: we are Honour bound to (while sounding repetetive) honour our NATO commitment

 

[mjohnston39]

because their current mission is ill-conceived and misguided

Hmmm, wasn't Stephen Dion a member of Martin cabinet who orrginated the current mission.... : Another of case of the fiberlas ignoring history and  being less than honest with the Canadian public. 

 

[a_majoor]

I used to think he was the best choice for Liberal leader, or at least the best of a bad lot; now he has just stepped over into the "banish from public life" category.

The one common denominator of people like Jack Layton, Stefan Dion and their crowds of hangers on is the unspoken desire to withdraw from the Global stage and cower inside "Trudeaopia". That idea wasn't tenable even in the 1960's, today it is simply impossible. Time for the grown ups to step up and take charge.

 

[Journeyman]

Hmmm....wasn't "withdrawal with honour" George McGovern's platform in the US 1972 Presidential election? You know, the one where Nixon won all but two states....including McGovern's home state of South Dakota?   :

 

[Jed]

I used to think he was the best choice for Liberal leader, or at least the best of a bad lot; now he has just stepped over into the "banish from public life" category.

The one common denominator of people like Jack Layton, Stefan Dion and their crowds of hangers on is the unspoken desire to withdraw from the Global stage and cower inside "Trudeaopia". That idea wasn't tenable even in the 1960's, today it is simply impossible. Time for the grown ups to step up and take charge.

Trudeaopia = True Dope ia

 

[mjohnston39]

The one common denominator of people like Jack Layton, Stefan Dion and their crowds of hangers on is the unspoken desire to withdraw from the Global stage and cower inside "Trudeaopia".

That maybe true if you assume that Layton/Dion believe themselves what they are saying to be true. Call me cynical but I don't, both say what they think will get them votes from the sheeople, regards of what the actual truth might be. For example, both know (Dion has previously admitted) that there is no way Canada can meet it's Kyoto target, but both bleat on that they have a plan and that cutting out CO2 emissions by over 1/3 in 5 years is possible  :.

Mike

 

[Brad Sallows]

To hell with all of it.  Here's the reality: don't send the CF into any situation that can't be conclusively wrapped up in 18 months or less.  Our system of government and the people who like to play in it have neither the inspiration nor stamina nor ability to play well together to deal with anything requiring a longer attention span.  Natural disasters, security for major events, and regime change are OK.  Nation building and genocide abeyance should not be on the menu.  For the latter, we simply can't find any leaders with the right stuff.  Their political prospects will always supercede other issues.  They are weak people, and it's time we all got used to that fact.

 

[MarkOttawa]

And don't forget these immortal words: "bringing peace with honour".
http://eudocs.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Neville_Chamberlain's_%22Peace_For_Our_Time%22_speech

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Reccesoldier]

To hell with all of it.  Here's the reality: don't send the CF into any situation that can't be conclusively wrapped up in 18 months or less.  Our system of government and the people who like to play in it have neither the inspiration nor stamina nor ability to play well together to deal with anything requiring a longer attention span.  Natural disasters, security for major events, and regime change are OK.  Nation building and genocide abeyance should not be on the menu.  For the latter, we simply can't find any leaders with the right stuff.  Their political prospects will always supercede other issues.  They are weak people, and it's time we all got used to that fact.

That's not entirely true Brad.  If these people could send us somewhere where we could effectively do nothing and not get hurt thay have no problem with missions that last 30 years. Cyprus, UN mission in Bosnia, Golan Heights.  :-[

 

[dglad]

This would concern--or, actually, even  vaguely interest me--if Dion had any chance whatsoever of becoming the leader of the Liberal party.  However, when there's no chance you'll ever have to be accountable for your position, you can say whatever you want.  At best, he's desperately trying to differentiate himself from the front-runners so he has SOME chance of being noticed as something other than "the French guy with the leather satchel".  At worst, he actually means this, even though an out-and-out withdrawal won't sit well with the majority of Canadians (although, notice that, in the article, he immediately waffles and starts talking about after consulting with NATO allies and ending up with something "between" the current mission and complete withdrawal). 

 

[dglad]

This would concern--or, actually, even  vaguely interest me--if Dion had any chance whatsoever of becoming the leader of the Liberal party.  However, when there's no chance you'll ever have to be accountable for your position, you can say whatever you want.  At best, he's desperately trying to differentiate himself from the front-runners so he has SOME chance of being noticed as something other than "the French guy with the leather satchel".  At worst, he actually means this, even though an out-and-out withdrawal won't sit well with the majority of Canadians (although, notice that, in the article, he immediately waffles and starts talking about after consulting with NATO allies and ending up with something "between" the current mission and complete withdrawal). 

Well, this shows why I'm not a political pundit.  I guess the Liberals really like aesthetic Quebec intellectuals.  It will be interesting to see how much traction he gets in Ontario and the West.  It's also interesting that he now says that he would "consider" a withdrawal, per the CBC website:

In the candidates debate in Vancouver earlier this month, he said that the NDP proposal to withdraw completely is as irresponsible as was the Harper decision to extend the troop mandate to 2009 in the first place.

If he was prime minister, he said, he would be assessing the situation in Afghanistan on a daily basis. The tipping point for him, he said, would be if our military presence in the country was not bringing about any effective security for the local population.

So I guess that "any" preceding "effective security" gives him some room to maneuver.

 

[Kirkhill]

If the Liberals are led by Michael Ignatieff, the Conservatives under Harper would get the support of 38 per cent of voters, while the Liberals would stand at 25 per cent, the NDP under Jack Layton would get 18 per cent, the Bloc Quebecois led by Gilles Duceppe would have nine per cent, the Green party under Elizabeth May would have six per cent, while four per cent don't know how they'd vote.

- If the Liberals are led by Bob Rae, the standings would be as follows: Conservatives (38 per cent), Liberals (27 per cent); NDP (18 per cent); Bloc (nine per cent); Greens (four per cent); Don't know (four per cent).

- If the Liberals are led by Stephane Dion, the results would be: Conservatives (35 per cent); Liberals (27 per cent); NDP (19 per cent); Bloc (nine per cent); Greens (seven per cent); Don't know (four per cent).
- If the Liberals are led by Gerard Kennedy, the results would be: Conservatives (37 per cent); Liberals (25 per cent); NDP (18 per cent); Bloc (11 per cent); Greens (five per cent); Don't know (five per cent).

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=bb32d641-6e39-456c-83c0-4c59cc23379b&k=92981

As the article said and uphill battle.  The survey was by Ipsos Reid for Canwest.  Now that the Liberals have a leader rather than a variety of leaders it will be interesting to see which way this develops.  It is going to be a riding by riding, if not poll by poll fight.