Strike

[Spencer100]

You are more full of shit than the diaper of a baby with diarrhea.

There is no requirement to be a union member to be in the federal public service. None. Nada. Rien.

Read up on Lavigne v OPSEU,and the Rand formula, then come back.

Ok ok, Ivknow both those court cases. More the Rand is famous here. Ok I was told and under the impression the federal government was a "closed" shop thanks for the correction. I will modify my thinking.

In the private side many are closed shops you must be a member.

Question I wonder how many Fed employees take the option of not being a member? Just pay the bargaining dues?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Question I wonder how many Fed employees take the option of not being a member? Just pay the bargaining dues?

Really doesn't matter if you are a "member" or not. It'd be like me saying "I'm not a Canadian" but I still go see my universally covered medical appointment when I have an issue.
You're 'not a member" in your Happy Gilmore place only.

 

[Brad Sallows]

You can. You are not a member of the union simply by virtue of having a job where they’re your bargaining agent. Being a union member means you voluntarily joined the union. Look up the ‘Rand’ decision. The union has no power over you if you aren’t a member.

Great. It also shouldn't depend on anything else related to a union. Is that also the case? Can Canadians freely compete for any federal job without being bound by the bargained contracts?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Great. It also shouldn't depend on anything else related to a union. Is that also the case? Can Canadians freely compete for any federal job without being bound by the bargained contracts?

They're called contractors....

 

[Brad Sallows]

I suppose that fills the bill. A contractor is basically an independent responsible for his own lifetime financial planning.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I suppose that fills the bill. A contractor is basically an independent responsible for his own lifetime financial planning.

So like every other person??

 

[brihard]

Great. It also shouldn't depend on anything else related to a union. Is that also the case? Can Canadians freely compete for any federal job without being bound by the bargained contracts?

No, if you work for the federal public service in a department and job category that comes under a collective agreement, you are subject to the employment terms and conditions for that bargaining unit, and you pay union dues unless you’re an excluded position (managerial, confidential etc).

Any Canadian is equally free to compete for these jobs, subject to things like internal vs external hiring. None get to negotiate their own terms of conditions of employment as a carve out from the applicable collective agreement. That’s the whole point of collective agreements.

 

[dapaterson]

The President of the Treasury Board has sent out an open letter to the members of PSAC.

An open letter to public servants and Canadians - Canada.ca

An open letter to public servants and Canadians

www.canada.ca

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

"On seniority, we’ve proposed the possibility of jointly requesting that the Public Service Commission consider making seniority a factor to be considered after merit, when decisions are being made to adjust the size of the public service"

A Union would sooner commit Hari-kari then give in to this one....

 

[dapaterson]

"On seniority, we’ve proposed the possibility of jointly requesting that the Public Service Commission consider making seniority a factor to be considered after merit, when decisions are being made to adjust the size of the public service"

A Union would sooner commit Hari-kari then give in to this one....

That is in fact stronger language than the union currently has in the collective agreement. See: Program and Administrative Services (PA)- Canada.ca

 

[Brad Sallows]

So like every other person??

A defined benefit pension takes a lot of the stress off.

 

[dimsum]

Some have crossed? Wow.

Yup. It's up to the member to weigh risks (and perceived risks) and work or not.

 

[NavyShooter]

So....does this mean that as a member of the Public Service, who's been paying union dues for several years, but has not received anything from the union in terms of information, membership cards, or anything like that, I can go in and cease the deductions from my pay because there isn't actually a need for me to be a part of the union?

 

[Good2Golf]

A defined benefit pension takes a lot of the stress off.

…although Govt DB pensions of today have essentially turned into DC pensions with the swing from mostly employer-contributed pensions up until the mid-90s to the employee-heavier contributions. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Govt pensions transitions to DC pensions.

 

[Booter]

So....does this mean that as a member of the Public Service, who's been paying union dues for several years, but has not received anything from the union in terms of information, membership cards, or anything like that, I can go in and cease the deductions from my pay because there isn't actually a need for me to be a part of the union?

No you have to pay fees.
That’s my understanding anyways.

 

[dapaterson]

So....does this mean that as a member of the Public Service, who's been paying union dues for several years, but has not received anything from the union in terms of information, membership cards, or anything like that, I can go in and cease the deductions from my pay because there isn't actually a need for me to be a part of the union?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: The Rand Formula, as upheld by the Supreme Court in Lavigne v OPSEU, requires anyone who is a member of a bargaining unit to be represented by that bargaining unit and to pay membership dues, even if they are not a member of the union, as they benefit from the services provided by the union (eg collective bargaining).

Various other pieces of legislation and regulation, together with union constitutions and bylaws, amplify what is and is not included. So, for example, federal laws governing the federal public service require all members of a bargaining unit (and not only members of the union) to have a vote in a strike vote; however, the legislation does not require that non-union members get a vote for ratifying contracts for the bargaining unit.

Clear as mud?

 

[AKa]

I'm remembering the strike in 1991. I had a friend who was vociferously anti-union and crossed the picket line. It was ugly; there were threats and physical altercations. Personal relationships never recovered.

We had a number of clashes on the picket line in Trenton and tempers were very short. I hope we aren't going to face the same levels of rancor this time. But at least this time, people who feel compelled to work can do it from home and not face the physical intimidation.

 

[mariomike]

Seems to be a little bit of confusion about unions.

At the municipal level, a union man attended our recruit training.

Gave us a pocket-bible size collective agreement, union card, names of the shop stewards, location of the union hall, and dates of meetings. Whole thing only took about 15 minutes.

Do they do that at the federal level?

 

[Brad Sallows]

…although Govt DB pensions of today have essentially turned into DC pensions with the swing from mostly employer-contributed pensions up until the mid-90s to the employee-heavier contributions. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Govt pensions transitions to DC pensions.

If the payouts are still on a fixed formula, it's still DB. Employer-paid contributions, taxes, provincial health care premiums, benefits, etc, etc are all part of the employee's compensation. "Employer-paid" is just an accounting fiction that makes employees feel like they're getting something at no cost to themselves, but from the employer's perspective, it's all one lump - the cost of the employee.

 

[Good2Golf]

If the payouts are still on a fixed formula, it's still DB.

Agreed, although that doesn’t mean that DB is always better than DC. In the same way that a fixed-term mortgage isn’t always better/worse than a variable-rate mortgage. One has to run the numbers to see the input/output ratio when the time to collect comes.

Employer-paid contributions, taxes, provincial health care premiums, benefits, etc, etc are all part of the employee's compensation. "Employer-paid" is just an accounting fiction that makes employees feel like they're getting something at no cost to themselves, but from the employer's perspective, it's all one lump - the cost of the employee.

Cost “of” the employee isn’t the same as cost “to” the employee. For DB, of course the employer is going to try and flip the ratio of employer-to-employee contributions, but the employer contributions are paid by someone else, the customer/market, not the employer. The only direct impact to the employee is the ratio of their contribution to that of the employer.