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Support for the troops - but not the war... - WTF over.

KevinB

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Okay this emerged over at another forum - it touched a nerve with me for a few reasons and then brought a spotlight on a few things.

In PM'ing with Blakey (amongst other soldiers) I decided it was good to post here.

basicload said:
I get very upset about people who are not "in the fight" wanting to have reasoned discussions "about the fight".

How am I supposed to stay unemotional about things that I have seen and done, friends killed and enemies crushed under our boots, since 9/11?
The idea is preposterous. Some of the "People" getting killed that you talk so much about are my friends and co-workers. Eventually it will be me too, but you want me to have an reasoned discussion of the war....

To have a discussion with a person that has not seen the situation first hand is pointless. You and incapable of understanding the situation because you have not been IN the situation.

All of your research seems to come from second hand sources. Your information comes from open source and appearetly misinformed people.

I cannot get into a proper debate over these issues when I cannot disclose my sources or discuss classified information to prove my points.

Further more I do not possess the vernacular skill to properly articulate my point to the effectiveness that it needs in this written medium.

Lastly I was trained in the military to respect my enemies' capabilities. In this case, YOU.

You want a simple soldier with a HS education to have a "reasoned discussion" with a SOCAL Lawyer? (Stay in Cali BTW, it suits you great)

That would be like me challenging you to a gunfight, a non-starter. (not a veiled internet threat BTW)

I have enough stressors in my life with out dealing with the portion of our society that I cannot stand, purely because their belief system is based upon flawed ideas and facts.

You win.

Good day to you sir.

"America! Fuck yeah"!
Member of the Paramilitary arm of the FDNY since 9/11 2001

Anyway I think Chuck (who is literally a poster boy for the GWOT) has it 100%.
 
Excellent post Kevin, thanks for posting it.

You're right, for "...a simple soldier with a HS education..." he certainly articulated the difficulties of debating some of today's issues in this medium, particularly when someone arrives with the belief that they are an expert because of what they've learned from open sources.

PS - I think this should be a sticky for required reading...
 
My post, will, inevitably raise some controversy.
This is a reply from me on the same subject , that I had with another member of the forum, it is, along the same lines of the original post.
If you feel the need to address the issue, fell free to do so.
Re: Good Post
« Sent to: "Edited" on: Today at 20:02:32 »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is a superb reply ( I assume it was) by the poster, that is, more often than naught, the way I feel while I contemplate if I should reply to threads on this site. But I digress, as long as Mike and (as I see it) the "chosen few" decide that the only way to get a passionate point across is to have the vocabulary skill of a SOCAL grad, there will be many people on this site that go unchallenged, due to the fact that they are unwilling to be belittled because of there written skills, although they themselves have had much more experience in the practical application of the trade rather than the theoretical application
Hope I'm not hijacking the thread...
 
Further more I do not possess the vernacular skill to properly articulate my point
He means liturgical, not vernacular. "Venacular" would actually be the exact opposite of his intended meaning.

For clarification only. Wouldn't want to confuse any of our readers, now, would we?  :)
 
You guys are fucking outstanding. It's unfortunate that you don't jump in more often because of the need for some people to try and talk circles around you. I have never been there or done that, I'm just a simple joe trying to learn from the best before I go there and do that. I don't know much about combat situations and the like, but this is what I imagine in my head; the ability to muddle very experienced soldier with double speak until they give up try to make their point is not what soldiering about. Being loquacious and verbally skilled does not make one right. Bottom line is, I like hearing what you guys have to say, because in my own little head, I imagine your point of view is much like it is in the real world, stripped down and straight to point. Thanks for passing on all your knowledge.
 
Hell, even Britney Spears has said that (s)he is in support of the war, so I don't think there will be much debate here.  There is a difference in "not being in support of the war" and thinking that it was a bad/hasty idea - we've had many varied discussions on the impact of Iraq, how the enemy has used it for their advantage, and how we are learning things - but this doesn't mean that I'm not 110% behind both the war and our allies that are fighting it.

FWIW, I added my two cents.
 
Infanteer - agree
but go look a Sharia Lawyers posting to Chuck over on LF.

Same issue is here - I alluded to in other threads the refusal of Canada and Canadians either out of stupidity or naivity to realised we are in the GWOT - regardless of if we agreed that Iraq was or was not a good idea at the time - It is NOW a drag down struggle to the death for either us or radical islam.

the quicker we figure that out - gear up and put a few rounds in their chest the better off we will be.  Or when Chuck and his kind die off (and he's making no bones he knows his days are numbered) who will stop the barbarians at the gate?

Then we will be playing 911 x 1,000,000,000 inside Canada and the US - and the reason I am a soldier is so my son does not have to put up with that.  I'm quite willing to give my life to the preservation of our lifestyle, but there are a lot of people that IMHO we'd be better off if the insurgents got them first...

 
Hey, wait a minute....

as long as Mike and (as I see it) the "chosen few" decide that the only way to get a passionate point across is to have the vocabulary skill of a SOCAL grad, there will be many people on this site that go unchallenged, due to the fact that they are unwilling to be belittled because of there written skills, although they themselves have had much more experience in the practical application of the trade rather than the theoretical application

Am I one of the "chosen few" here?  There's nothing wrong with being able to articulate yourself.
 
heck, even Britney Spears has said that (s)he is in support of the war, so I don't think there will be much debate here.

Well, you see, as of now, mine is now a minorty opinion. You know how I love to be contrary for contrary's sake.....


WRT the OP:

I don't think the problem is one of articulation, but of mindsets. The mindset of a soldier is fundamentally different from that of a politician or diplomat or scientist. The military culture is one of absolutes, where a bad decision is better than no decision, and we train our people to get into this mindset. On the other hand, anyone who has studied either the natural or the social sciences will know that in purely objective terms, natural and social phenomenons are almost never absolutely black or white. Hence the difference in discussion styles. I believe this is the reason behind basicload's frustration.


Also, smart people tend to be liberals.  :)
 
I think the issue is some at the coal face get intimidated or ridiculed due to the way they write rather than the vien of the message.

- Think back to some of the arguments of my C7A2 paper -- DLR and Diemaco tried to marginalize me do to the choice of perspective/prospective, and other word choice sentence structure.

-->if you cant refuse the message make fun of the delivery.


Brit - here is an absolute - either you've got a gun covering our enemies or I have my gun on you...  ;)
 
Britney Spears said:
I don't think the problem is one of articulation, but of mindsets. The mindset of a soldier is fundamentally different from that of a politician or diplomat or scientist. The military culture is one of absolutes, where a bad decision is better than no decision, and we train our people to get into this mindset. On the other hand, anyone who has studied either the natural or the social sciences will know that in purely objective terms, natural and social phenomenons are almost never absolutely black or white.

Military decisions are also rarely black and white.  The problem isn't difference of opinion, it's people who form their opinion based on partial or incorrect information, and then refuse to listen to any information or opinions which contradict what they "know".  And, as relates to the current thread, when presented with facts they cannot refute, many of these individuals fall back on trying to sound superior through an extensive vocabulary.
 
- Think back to some of the arguments of my C7A2 paper -- DLR and Diemaco tried to marginalize me do to the choice of perspective/prospective, and other word choice sentence structure.

Your arguments made perfect sense to me, so I think it is obvious that Diemaco and DLR are a bunch of idiots.  :)

Seriously, I never really followed that discussion very closely, but from what I've read, I think you might have gone a bit overboard trying to present it in purely academic terms, when there was no need for it. If you had followed a more popular, "for the masses" format, like that of a magazine article, I think it would have had more impact. Don't feel compelled to follow an academic format, there's no advantage in it for our purposes.  I've written plenty of "real" academic papers, with perfectly formatted citations and references(I use software to automate the proccess), that are complete garbage and present absolutely no new information. A useful skill for a future career in law and/or the Liberal Party of Canada, not much else. People who know can tell the difference.



Brit - here is an absolute - either you've got a gun covering our enemies or I have my gun on you...  Wink

Most likely true between you and I, but not so much between national leaders.

I had prepared a witty and eloquent post based around the folowing premesis: If a "coal face" finds it difficult having a discussion with someone who "wasn't there", what would a discussion between a "coal face" and George W. Bush sound like? After all, Bush has most certainly not been "there", or anywhere really, for that matter, and neither has any of his neo-con associates. Surely in the last 5 years, him and his gang have all been shooting way out of their  lanes?

Then I decided I'd better drop it before anyone gets too dizzy.  :)
 
Well, I believe that falling back on mocking the structure of the argument just means you have no counter-argument.  The only time I do it is when the person is right outta 'er (eg: hI, cAn I brougte my AK47 to worK inthe AMry?).

However, I still think there is a strength in having good communications skills - for example, look at MarkC's posts; very direct and yet very well-worded and always well received.

PS: What are we argueing about here, people who can write well or people who are "for the troops but against the war"?
 
KevinB excellent read sums it up for me.Theres nothing wrong with having good comunication  skills,but being a pompus arsehole about it, is wrong.I've been on this site for about 3 years and a 126 posts my military career spans close to 20 yrs off an on.I ain't politicaly correct AND I DON'T LIKE TYPIN.If i got the call today i would go to AFGHSTN,if i was 19 i would be doin my damdest tryin in to join the american army beause this is a real war,they need are help.Myself i will never forget 911.Imho just cause ya can type 120 wpm,it don't make ya hardcore.haha  Theres alot of guys on here with real and current exsperiance some of us should just shut up and pay attention and some guys should get a sence of fuckin humor.Anyway enough of this typin....Hope this makes sence.....
 
Infanteer said:
Hey, wait a minute....

Am I one of the "chosen few" here?  There's nothing wrong with being able to articulate yourself.
Not at all infanteer, at least not in my view.
 
Interesting thread.

The problem, as I see, it is that sometimes we forget that when you attack someone's opinion (be it a political opinion, or an opinion of a design solution like the Triad for example) you are attacking the person themselves. The reaction you will get depends on how you choose to attack the opinion, how the opinion was formed, and the honesty with which both parties address the opinion.

Some people are more concerned about being right than they are about knowing what is right and will do whatever they can to prove themselves right, whether they are or are not. Typically the ones who make the loudest noise about "being right" are the ones who have the fewest rational arguments and are theones who have the weakest egos.

In school we had to learn to construct and then defend opinions in front of both our peers as well as a panel of people who were far better versed in the subject matter than we were I.E. the Professors. What we learned was, just like anything, what you get out depends on what you put in. In those critiques when someone didn't do enough research, or relied on suspect sources, or worse still, relied on what they believed to be correct rather than what they could show to be correct, their opinion was be generally indefensable and as such their design decisions got torn apart. When all they had was the belief that they were right they had to face a difficult decision to either accept being wrong, and therefore not as smart and as infallible as they thought, or try to reduce the effect of being wrong by denigrating the other persons view point. Often that choice depended on how the profs chose to explain the error of their ways.

Some professors delighted in making a fool out of the student and we had our fair share of nervous breakdowns and shouting matches. It was never a pretty sight, and seeing those student's egos destroyed by their own doing (with a little help from the Proffs) was a humbling experience that taught me that if I am going to have an opinion I had better be prepared to defend it, at least against reasoned arguments. I also learned that arguments not based on reason are not arguments at all, but defensive tactics made to demean one party while aggrandizing the other. As such they're nothing more than desperate attempts to save face and can be ignored. Ironically the tactic is really shortsighted and it never failed to amaze me: The profs who were arrogant pricks never got the respect that they were really due and their sometimes valuable message got ignored, while the profs who chose to make their point without making the student feel like a retard were well respected if not admired. Even more ironic is that I learned a lot from both types of profs, albeit different lessons.

Now all of that is wayyy off topic but somehow it is related. Some people don't see that the important issue here is supporting the troops by reinforcing the reasoning to them why the decision was made in the first place. It's our duty as citizens to question the our Gov't decisions on war, as a democracy we have to ensure that they have the best interests of the country at heart, HOWEVER, once the reasoning has been presented, argued, refuted, or proven, it is time to get on with the task and accept that the decision has been made. The danger is that if we continue to rehash arguments that have already been argued, the troops on the ground will begin to do the same and their lives and the success of the mission depend on thier dedication and committment to the task at hand, not to mention what the enemythinks about our bickering and backseat driving.

What I'm getting at is arguing, debating and disagreeing should be based on the common goal of determining WHAT is right, rather than WHO is right. The troops out on the line shouldn't have any question that they are not just well supported back home and that the reason for them being there is right. Let them get on with the matter at hand, the time to debate the matter is before they go. Once they are there, fighting and killing, there is no turning back.

Perhaps declaring a War on Terror was a foolish leap into the unknown, I'm not convinced that it was, and I suspect that we won't really know until many many years have passed, debating the decision now is pointless. Regardless whether or not it was the right decision we've made the leap and so now we have to do everything in our power to help the guys that are fighting and dying to win. If that includes a big slice of humble pie then so be it. I think the guys in uniform are making a much more serious sacrifice than their ego so I don't think it's too much to ask that those opposed to the war swallow their pride and accept that they have lost the argument.

Anyway, that is all I'm going to say about that, sorry for the long post,

Andrew
 
Andyboy said:
What I'm getting at is arguing, debating and disagreeing should be based on the common goal of determining WHAT is right, rather than WHO is right. The troops out on the line shouldn't have any question that they are not just well supported back home and that the reason for them being there is right. Let them get on with the matter at hand, the time to debate the matter is before they go. Once they are there, fighting and killing, there is no turning back.
Andrew

EXCELLENT.

I think that is KEY in all of our minds.

Its like a bar fight with your buddy - you can try to talking him out - but once the fists are flying you gotta back him - or he is goign to get shitkicked and then they will come for you.


 
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