Synthetic materials clothing now banned outside the wire in A'Stan

[Good2Golf]

Why not just buy 1 or 2 piece US issued Nomex tan flight suits?  I don't see any need for testing, the design works. The only improvement I could suggest is pockets on both arms.

1 Wing did, in 1999 and then again in 2002, more than 500 sets of it.  1 CAD (at the time, not the Air Div of today ) authorized it (guys on the DIN can check the Operational Airworthiness clearance on the 1 Cdn Air Div site) but the HQ wouldn't pay for it.  I was the 1 Wing ALSE guy who then procured it from the US Army supply system (with SOCOM's permission).  At the time, the suit was only being issued to 160th SOAR(A) but I spoke nicely to the item manager on behalf of our guys going in to Kosovo and hooked up with a guy I knew from years past who gave it a Nightstalker thumb's up.  This is the same rig I was wearing while flopping around the Red Desert in a CH47 south of Khandahar a  few months ago.  It is very light-weight (only 4.5 oz/sq.yd) and very breathable.  It was designed after Somalia and came in to US aviation SOA service in mid-90's and general aviation service in early 2000's.  Newer versions now have upper arm pockets much like the ACUs for the ground guys.  I like the two piece a bit better than the one piece when you're packing a thigh holster, I'm not as big a fan of the cop/shoulder-style holsters.

It really is "too" easy to do.  I personally don't see where the substantive issues are...

Re: the blue suit...it was purely the Comd AIRCOM of the day directing that blue would happen as he thought is was a good way of celebrating Air Force pride and looking good.  Quite frankly, I didn't think there was anything wrong with my 1-piece tan and dark green suits and was happy to see the 2-piece OG107 tac hel suits come along in the late 80's as well...blue was just plain stupid, IMO -- don't forget, "fashion before function", afterall!  :
Cheers,
Duey

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Duey aren't you in a postion of change or influence?

 

[Big Red]

I like the two piece a bit better than the one piece when you're packing a thigh holster, I'm not as big a fan of the cop/shoulder-style holsters.

I like the 1 piece because of it's loose fit, and its easier than putting on pants AND a shirt    We just wear duty belts with our drop legs and don't have any problems.

 

[Loachman]

We can probably all argue endlessly which of the three services is more hidebound and rigid in its thinking, but I'd vote for the a** f**ce.

There is some deep psychological identity-crisis problem that refuses to die, along with a lack of historical knowledge - not to mention logic.

The real RCAF did not paint, dye, upholster, or carpet everything blue as has become slavishly mandatory these days.

Flying clothing was grey, which at least gave a downed crewmember a better chance of escaping and evading than the pretty-boy-blue garbage did. They even had the gall to print "Coverall, Flyer's, COMBAT" on the user label on the blue junk.

And now that we finally have green flying clothing and CADPAT, somebody has to ruin it with blue T-shirts, rank insignia, and name tags (that can't be read more than six inches away except under direct sunlight)...

As a 400 Squadron tech said in the canteen right after the briefing on that several years ago, to the cynical amusement of all, "why don't they just go back to dickies"?

Style over substance anyday.

I'm still waiting for them to issue the pills that make our bodily wastes conform to the obsession with blue.

The RCAF didn't call its bases "wings", either - they were "Stations". Wings are the equivalent of a brigade. A former Commander Air Command decided that we had to have wings again, but got it all wrong.

As for the heat/sweat/eau-de-wet-dog issues, that was not confined to the blue clothing; it was characteristic of the wool/poly fabric that flying suits had been made of for several decades up until now.

In my Kiowa days in 427 Sqn we drank with the recce and arty officers (and nurses when available) in the messes in Pet rather than with the slug (Huey) drivers as we worked very closely with them. When the blue stuff came out (service dress uniform and flying clothing) we became "you a** f**ce guys".

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

And all these years they told me the grass was greener on the bluer side.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Having come from the green side (artillery) to the blue side (maritime helicopter), I would have to say that everything Loachman says is true.  The "Air Force" as an institution, reminds me of that insecure kid who always tries to hard to fit in or be cool- and never does.  The "Air Force" does not appear to tolerate dissent or welome change- even when that change is required for it's fleets to operate in a manner necessary to support the customer- either the Army or the Navy.

Even though MH and Tac hel makes up 50% of the cockpits in the CF, everything in the system seems geared toward producing and sustaining 48 fighter pilots.  I'm not arguing against fighters- a grown up country like Canada needs fighters.  I'm just saying that, it is not 1960 anymore.  We don't have 23 fighter squadrons- we have 2 plus an OTU.  A slight rebalancing of who gets the staff attention is LONG overdue.  In my humble, 14 year Captain, two occupation opinion...

I've dragged this thread way off topic- Mods, I apologize.  Nomex-good, polyester/nylon/rayon- bad.

 

[redleafjumper]

In reading this thread through the thing that makes the most sense to me is that wool should get another look.
It insulates well even when wet or dirty, is relatively fire-resistant and abrasive resistant. Wearing appropriate clothing loose and in layers is always the way to go.  An additional clue is to consider how the locals dress, just like LCol Lawrence did.  On a trip I took in the Western Sahara in 2001, I was astonished at the layers of heavy loose wool and cotton clothing that the locals wore.  I was even more surprised to see them roll up in heavy camel blankets (wool) to sleep in on the sand.  Apparently the heavy blankets are not only warm, but they also help keep the snakes out.  As a northerner, I didn't see the need for a blanket until I saw the snake marks on the sand in the morning.  (I guess I was too big to snack on, and the snoring must've scared it off!)  The clothing choices that they wore kept them insulated from the sun as well as insulated from the cool nights. 

Wool and wool blends really deserve some consideration.

 

[COBRA-6]

+1 redleaf,

modern Merino Wool and blends of could replace polypro and fleece in temperate and cool climates, and manufacturers are cluing in to the needs for fire-resistant tactical clothing. In addition to the gear company I linked to in a previous post, I stumbled across this link today for DriFire clothing.

 

[Good2Golf]

Redleaf, wool is not a bad thing, but it is not fire retardant, it charrs and turns into an ash that falls away (at least it doesn't stick to skin like melted synthetics).  When used with dual layer clothing (cotton undergamrnets) as SeaKingTacco and Inch mentioned earlier, the combination of outer and under layers gives a reasonable flash flame protection.  One has to remember that these burn tests with CF wool/poly flight gear were biased a bit to the "make it out of the fireball" crowd in fighter operations, vice the "stay with the burning piece of crap all the way to the ground" helicopter or transport crowds.

Quagmire, I had more influence in an ealier life (one of several staff job), now I'll just be one of those mangey, cranky, plaintive operators complaining about why stuff hasn't been done 10-12 years after many of us equipment/clothing staffers pumped numerous UCRs on the crap stuff (including multiple proposed solutions -- never complain without a proposed solution, after all) up the equipment chain.

Loachman, you mean you don't proudly sing the RCAF marchpast in the morning and thank your "lucky" starts you work for the CF's self-stated "employer of choice"...

Cheers,
Duey

 

[redleafjumper]

Duey, I agree with your assessment of wool; I didn't claim that it is fire-retardant, merely fire resistant.  It seems to me that it is one old natural fibre that still has a lot to give.  It has served armies well for centuries in all sorts of difficult climes, including Persia.

 

[Good2Golf]

Duey, I agree with your assessment of wool; I didn't claim that it is fire-retardant, merely fire resistant.  It seems to me that it is one old natural fibre that still has a lot to give.  It has served armies well for centuries in all sorts of difficult climes, including Persia.

RLJ, indeed you did!  Mea culpa!  My melon must have read retardant vice resistent (hmmm...maybe my brain is made with nomex fibres instead of wool... ) 

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Loachman]

Loachman, you mean you don't proudly sing the RCAF marchpast in the morning and thank your "lucky" starts you work for the CF's self-stated "employer of choice"...

Is hell still above zero?

I have to find my old "Provisional Headquarters Canadian Army Aviation Corps" sign and mount it in my corner of the cubicle. It's in a box somewhere.

 

[KevinB]

Re-reading this I still feel ILL when thinking of this order (albiet given in the spirit of a good idea) when you think about the material that the CADPAT TW and CADPAT AR uniforms are made of...

 

[Good2Golf]

Re-reading this I still feel ILL when thinking of this order (albiet given in the spirit of a good idea) when you think about the material that the CADPAT TW and CADPAT AR uniforms are made of...

Yeah, Kev...less the lycra, not much difference...the burned on "second skin" would just be a little less form fitting...  : 

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Loachman]

Just like when they were pushing the flame protection qualities of our old flying clothing it included highly flammable velcro, nylon liners on the summer and winter jackets and bunny pants, and ACRYLIC collars and cuffs on the summer jackets.

 

[sgtdixon]

Hey Im an Armoured Crewman...theres gonna be nifty new stuff for me?
yea, and SgtMaj Howie will shit me tiffany cufflinks and tell me he loves me.......  :threat:

 

[Laps]

Saw some 2 piece NOMEX (well... whatever the brand of fire retardant fabric it was) CADPAT Flight suit the other day.  Boys at 403 Sqn are getting them.  Too bad it has to be ruined by blue/red/rainbow patches.  Also, you got to like the fact that they issued them to the only not field deployable unit for testing and evaluation.  God forbid they would have used 408 as we spend about 11.5 months out of the year on exercise...  Kind of like getting cooks, clerks and MatTechs the responsability to eval new body armour / Tac vest...

I agree with a bunch of people here, the CADPAT nomex would be nice, but there are so many things that we more urgently need that this is probably not a big priority.

I would really like to get better Fire Resistant / retardant under garment...

 

[Good2Golf]

Laps, it's a slight step up from stuff being all tested in Comox, becasue as somebody from DAR once told me, "Comox has the greatest cross-section of AF MOC's in a single location."  Whatever....  In the end, on this one DAR pushed where the suit was tested, boys at 403 had nothing to do with the choice.

Besides, you guys are getting a *bigger* present...

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Laps]

Oh Duey, now I fell like a kid on Christmas eve...  What is that present?????!!!!????  

Probably be posted (to 403???) before I get to see it.  Oh well.

I am not blaming the 403 boys, but rather that the choice was not necessarily well made.  As I said previously though, every little bit helps.  I would however like to see a different pattern if we are going to go with a new 2 pc flight suit.  I really like the American model where you can take you shirt off and put it back on without the hassle of re-tucking it every time.  I would also like to be able to roll up the sleeves a la combat shirt.

 

[Good2Golf]

Laps, stay where you are....403 will live on without you!  ;D  The present is *BIG*

FWIW, I fully agree with you about the pattern...at the very least, more of a cadet-style/mandarin collar and not tucked in...like the US tan hot-wx two-piece for Kosovo.  That stuff is nice and light yet fully protective.

Cheers,
Duey