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Syria Superthread [merged]

Journeyman said:
That's a pretty self-obvious statement -- if any one of our current provinces didn't exist then Canada's map would look different too. Whatever point you're trying to make, isn't.
By your ongoing posting in this thread, it's obvious that you have an interest in Syria. I suspect that that interest is causing you to overstate Syria's significance. I currently see no great risk of a regional war; the regional -- and global -- consensus appears to be a willingness to let a civil war play itself out.

The major concern is Turkey having sufficient accommodations for all the fleeing Syrian political and military leadership.

I'd be more concerned about Jordan or Lebanon. They already have their hands full dealing with Palestinians and Iraqis, add the Syrian mix and you'd more likely observe destabilized states. My concern with Turkey is only in the event of Iranian 'intervention' or Kurds attempt to axe northern Syria/Iraq.
 
Tiamo said:
I'd be more concerned about Jordan or Lebanon. They already have their hands full dealing with Palestinians and Iraqis, add the Syrian mix and you'd more likely observe destabilized states. Additionally, Lebanon can descend back into civil war should the Assad regime with Iran's help should decide to prop-up Hezbollah.

My concern with Turkey is only in the event of Iranian 'intervention' or Kurds attempt to axe northern Syria/Iraq.
 
Tiamo said:
I'd be more concerned about Jordan or Lebanon. They already have their hands full dealing with Palestinians and Iraqis, add the Syrian mix and you'd more likely observe destabilized states. Additionally, Lebanon can descend back into civil war should the Assad regime with Iran's help should decide to prop-up Hezbollah.


I almost agree with you ... except that I'm not concerned. I think they (well not Jordan quite so much) already are "destabilized states" so the descent into civil wars and the merger of all those civil wars into a regional war is highly likely and, in my opinion, desirable.* I think Hezbollah may be the catalyst that draws Iran into a regional war against the Arabs.


__________
* Those who have followed my ramblings over the years will recall that I think Islam IS a problem, not because it is Islam but because Islam, as practiced in the Arab/Persian/West Asian region, is decidedly in need of an enlightenment and I suspect than an enlightenment will need to be preceded by a reformation which I guess will be violent.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
I almost agree with you ... except that I'm not concerned. I think they (well not Jordan quite so much) already are "destabilized states" so the descent into civil wars and the merger of all those civil wars into a regional war is highly likely and, in my opinion, desirable.* I think Hezbollah may be the catalyst that draws Iran into a regional war against the Arabs.

Agree, they're all held together by a duct tape. But why would a regional war be desirable? What benefit do we or the international community get from a regional war in the ME?
 
Tiamo said:
What benefit do we or the international community get from a regional war in the ME?

As quoted by ERC

* Those who have followed my ramblings over the years will recall that I think Islam IS a problem, not because it is Islam but because Islam, as practiced in the Arab/Persian/West Asian region, is decidedly in need of an enlightenment and I suspect than an enlightenment will need to be preceded by a reformation which I guess will be violent.
 
GAP said:
As quoted by ERC

If we consider that Salafists and other extremists (even many moderate) Muslims believe there will be a war in Al-Sham (which is current day Syria) that will change the current regimes and bring back the Caliphas. Then, I'll doubt any war in that region no matter how violent will bring about moderate Islam. In fact, very likely due to scriptures and Imam's preaching the people will believe it is the end of day and they'll side blindly with an islamic extremist government that will be much worse than any of the factions we've seen involved in the conflicts thus far.

In other words, allowing a war in the ME would be seen to many in the ME as a fulfillment of the end of day prophecy. If we consider it from that angle, we'd be leaving the region to worse things.

I believe the ME needs more peace, better communication technology. More internet access and wide spread of ideas alike freedom of expression and freedom of thoughts. That is the only way to combat extremisim, but another regional war is exactly what the 'Islamists' desire right now.
 
Tiamo said:
If we consider that Salafists and other extremists (even many moderate) Muslims believe there will be a war in Al-Sham (which is current day Syria) that will change the current regimes and bring back the Caliphas. Then, I'll doubt any war in that region no matter how violent will bring about moderate Islam. In fact, very likely due to scriptures and Imam's preaching the people will believe it is the end of day and they'll side blindly with an islamic extremist government that will be much worse than any of the factions we've seen involved in the conflicts thus far.

In other words, allowing a war in the ME would be seen to many in the ME as a fulfillment of the end of day prophecy. If we consider it from that angle, we'd be leaving the region to worse things.

I believe the ME needs more peace, better communication technology. More internet access and wide spread of ideas alike freedom of expression and freedom of thoughts. That is the only way to combat extremisim, but another regional war is exactly what the 'Islamists' desire right now.

I think the great mistake of many well meaning people is to believe that by exposing other cultures to our "ideas like freedom of expression and freedom of thoughts" that those cultures will naturally internalize those same values.  I simply do not believe that.  We (the collective "We" from the West) only came to hold those values through a long and painful process of reformation and revolution.  Without having gone through the horrors of events like the Thirty Years War, the French Wars of Religion, the US and English Civil Wars, the American and French Revolutions, etc. we would not collectively have developed the shared values we hold today.

Unfortunately a similarly painful process will be required before other cultures experience any fundamental changes.  I think that this is why our historic successes in "exporting democracy" have been generally underwhelming.  These cultures have to learn for themselves (likely the hard way like we did) the lessons that we have learned.  The best we can hope for is to contain as much as possible the mess while they go through the process.
 
Tiamo said:
In other words, allowing a war in the ME would be seen to many in the ME as a fulfillment of the end of day prophecy.
How paternalistic. Do you believe that intervention by forces of the Christian-dominated West, saying "sorry, we can't allow you to sort out your own destiny" will be greeted with open arms?

I suspect that such a move would bring some unity to disparate Islamic factions.....but you're not going to like the result.
 
GR66 said:
I think the great mistake of many well meaning people is to believe that by exposing other cultures to our "ideas like freedom of expression and freedom of thoughts" that those cultures will naturally internalize those same values.  I simply do not believe that.  We (the collective "We" from the West) only came to hold those values through a long and painful process of reformation and revolution.  Without having gone through the horrors of events like the Thirty Years War, the French Wars of Religion, the US and English Civil Wars, the American and French Revolutions, etc. we would not collectively have developed the shared values we hold today.

Unfortunately a similarly painful process will be required before other cultures experience any fundamental changes.  I think that this is why our historic successes in "exporting democracy" have been generally underwhelming.  These cultures have to learn for themselves (likely the hard way like we did) the lessons that we have learned.  The best we can hope for is to contain as much as possible the mess while they go through the process.

The ME had seen its own shares of war. I believe it's been a war ridden region for 5,000+ years. There will be no change with another war. Peaceful progress through the use of Internet and Media had made quite a difference in people opinion and way of thinking. Yes, there are extremists, but we also now have more moderates in the ME region. I am afraid any progress made through technology will be wiped out in a regional war.

Most of the population will flee their homes seeking refuge at the West. The only people will be left to fight that war are extremists, poor families, nationalists and sympathizers for either side. Thus a regional war would create exodus to the west (1980s lebanon anyone?). It will leave fragile, more extreme and hostile groups or government in the ME.
 
Tiamo: my reading of history is, clearly, different from yours.

First of all: historically, people do not migrate in great numbers, not even under HUGE stresses. The truly great migrations, such as Europe around 500 CE and even China, in the late 20th century, have been economic, not people fleeing strife. Starvation will make people migrate, not war.

Second: the Arab/Persian Middle East looks a lot, to me, like Europe 500 years ago and I think it is ripe for a long, terrible series of wars - a generation or two of wars, at least.

The "output" of a generation or three of European wars (1588 to 1688), some horribly bloody and destructive, were, broadly, very positive; we can hope that there will be a similar "output" for the Middle East and West Asia.

I'm afraid that Twitter and social media are not going to be enough; I think some suffering - a lot, actually - will be necessary to force the sorts of socio-cultural changes that I believe are necessary for the Arabs, Iranians and West Asians.
 
E.R.: I do believe there are many issues still need to be worked out in the ME. Any solution needs to be from within the region and to resolve the region own problems. Given that, I'd still think a regional war can be avoided if there are enough enlightened leaders who are willing to compromise and leave in peace.


John Baird's Mideast trip to boost Canadian role in Syria crisis

Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/john-bairds-mideast-trip-to-boost-canadian-role-in-syria-crisis/article4472794/

Foreign Minister John Baird flies to the Middle East Friday on a hastily organized mission intended to show Canadian support for two countries inundated with refugees fleeing the raging conflict in Syria.

A trek to visit the teeming masses of displaced people – and announce aid for them – will allow Mr. Baird to be seen taking some action to help the victims of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in a long-running conflict that has frustrated Western nations.
 
This is a first and just before Baird's visit:

Clash reported between Jordan and Syria in border area

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/10/us-syria-crisis-jordan-idUSBRE8791B420120810
 
Interesting read on the makeup of the FSA dating back to March, 2012. Some factual errors on effective battalions locations and unit commanders. I guess that is the result of internet reporting/analyzing,  but the report has some good insights:

Source: http://www.understandingwar.org/sites/default/files/Syrias_Armed_Opposition.pdf

Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee on March 7,
2012 about issues that were restraining the United States from supporting the armed opposition in Syria.
“It is not clear what constitutes the Syrian armed opposition – there has been no single unifying military
alternative that can be recognized, appointed, or contacted,” he said.
 
Tiamo

While the communications revolution has changed many things, you should note that all sides are becoming adept at this. The Iranian "Green" revolution used Internet tools in an attempt to overthrow the theocracy, but failed (hard power tools still prevail, and the US led west refused to offer any sort of help or recognition), while the Muslim Brotherhood has used tools like Twitter extensively to support their political ground game and effectively freeze out democrats and moderates from political power in Egypt.

The ME is difficult to characterize because it is overlain by so many different divisions (most of which are not congruent). Religion, ethnicity, languages and even former "Imperial" boundaries (Ottoman and Persian empires, plus the imposed boundaries of the British and French) cover the landscape like spaghetti. As ERC says, the current configuration is unstable and only a violent series of shocks will shake the system into some new equilibrium.

If we will like the new equilibrium or not is a different story
 
Why you shouldn't do urban tanking without infantry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwjA3REyOJM&feature=related
 
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Interview+Russia+says+Syrian+guarantees+that+chemical+weapons+will/7133727/story.html
 
One of the many possible outcomes of the Civil War. I'm not entirely certain that an independent state is possible, given there will be almost no functioning economy and the borders will be surrounded by a very hostile majority population. IF the terrain provided natural boundaries and defensible positions, maybe (the examples of the Kurds building strength in their mountainous strongholds comes to mind), but I don't really see this.

The point about Alawite "boat people" could also lead to a greater tragedy; what if the surrounding nations point blank refuse to take them in? There is little sympathy for them in the region, Europeans are already struggling with populations of unassimilated Muslims from Turkey and North Africa so would hardly be welcoming; where would they go?

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/08/24/lawrence-solomon-the-next-boat-people/

Lawrence Solomon: The next boat people

Lawrence Solomon | Aug 24, 2012 10:44 PM ET
More from Lawrence Solomon

UNHCRSyria may see an exodus by sea, like Vietnam in the 1970s and 1980s, above.
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Syria’s Alawites may take to the sea, like the Vietnamese

If President Bashar al-Assad and his Alawite minority lose Syria’s civil war to the Sunni majority, as Western governments have predicted for more than a year now, the real bloodbath begins. The Sunnis, in revenge for four decades of often-murderous Assad family rule, are sure to seek retribution for the 20,000 brutally killed by Assad in the last 18 months; for the 10,000 wiped out by Hafez al-Assad, Bashar’s father, in a chemical-weapons massacre that put down a 1982 rebellion; and for the countless indignities and injustices throughout the period when the Alawite minority ruled over the Sunni majority.

Anticipating wholesale slaughter — calls for genocide against the Alawites abound — many if not most of the country’s two million-plus Alawites would flee in panic. Because Syria’s immediate neighbours to the north, south and east have neither the capacity nor the desire to accept large numbers of Alawites — seen as heretics by Sunni and Shia Muslims alike — many Alawites will take to the sea in an attempt to get to the West. This would create the greatest refugee crisis for the West since the end of the Vietnamese civil war in the 1970s, which saw the West first detain and then ultimately resettle more than one million boat people in the 1970s and 1980s.

A humanitarian disaster of epic scale is thus unfolding, one that would also strain Western budgets in this time of austerity — the cost of detaining Vietnamese refugees in the 1980s, when security was less of an issue, could cost as much as US$75,000 per person per year. Yet these looming costs, as well as the looming humanitarian disaster, are avoidable. Not under the West’s present strategy of regime change — replacing the Assad regime with a Sunni-led-coalition while keeping Syria’s borders intact – but by creating a state within Syria’s present borders for its Alawite population.

Such a state — called The Alawite State — actually existed after the First World War, when Alawites rebelled against French colonial rule over their homeland along the Mediterranean coast in a northwest corner of present-day Syria. With the blessings of the League of Nations, The Alawite State lasted from 1920 to 1936, when it joined Syria, a protectorate of various disparate minorities created by the Western colonial powers. Alawites — known for their military prowess — later became powerful in the fascist Baath Party that has ruled Syria in a military dictatorship.

That fascist Baath Party is now crumbling, as have other secular regimes in the Middle East, most of them artificial creations of the British and French in carving up the spoils of the Ottoman Empire. If the Western powers today were not adamant in preserving the country’s present borders, an Alawite state would be a likely outcome — the Alawites are in fact fortifying their traditional homeland, to allow them a retreat and, if necessary, a last stand. Syria’s Kurds are likewise fortifying traditional Kurdish parts of Syria, to protect themselves from bloodshed regardless of who ultimately assumes power.

But the West opposes a breakup of Syria, as do the governments of Syria’s neighbouring states — all fear the consequences of setting a precedent that encourages the national aspirations of the many other minorities in the Middle East. Local sectarian wars may well erupt in that grudge-filled part of the world.

Yet the consequences of insisting that Syria’s borders remain unchanged, and of forcing the Alawites and the Sunni majority to live together, are unconscionable: a continuation of the current killing of Sunni innocents at the hands of Assad’s Alawite forces, followed by a killing of Alawite minority innocents should the Sunni rebels win. In contrast, the case for quickly carving out an Alawite state is compelling, not least because it raises the prospects of a shortened and less reprehensible end to the current civil war.

Because Alawites don’t have a safe harbour in a state of their own, they are fighting furiously, and if necessary may resort to chemical weapons. If they do lose, and if the Sunni victors invade and overrun the Alawite strongholds, laying siege to the Alawite capital of Latakia on the Mediterranean, their backs will literally be to the sea.

Latakia, as the country’s largest port, will then oversee a large-scale evacuation of the populace by sea. And the West would oversee a refugee problem largely of its making.

Financial Post

lawrenceSolomon@nextcity.com
 
Iran Said to Send Troops to Bolster Syria

Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444230504577615393756632230.html

BEIRUT—Iran is sending commanders from its elite Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps and hundreds of foot soldiers to Syria, according to current and former members of the corps.
 
Thucydides said:
Tiamo

While the communications revolution has changed many things, you should note that all sides are becoming adept at this. The Iranian "Green" revolution used Internet tools in an attempt to overthrow the theocracy, but failed (hard power tools still prevail, and the US led west refused to offer any sort of help or recognition), while the Muslim Brotherhood has used tools like Twitter extensively to support their political ground game and effectively freeze out democrats and moderates from political power in Egypt.

The ME is difficult to characterize because it is overlain by so many different divisions (most of which are not congruent). Religion, ethnicity, languages and even former "Imperial" boundaries (Ottoman and Persian empires, plus the imposed boundaries of the British and French) cover the landscape like spaghetti. As ERC says, the current configuration is unstable and only a violent series of shocks will shake the system into some new equilibrium.

If we will like the new equilibrium or not is a different story

I'm in full agreement with most of what you've said. However, I'm not seeing a war as the eventual solution. I do believe that it will take generations of Middle Eastern youth to re-shape the ME into a stable zone. If 3 wars with Israel, 15 yrs civil war in lebanon, 2 wars in Iraq did not make a dent then no future wars will make a change.
 
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