Tanks in Urban Operations

[Da_man]

Somewhat of a tangent, here are some pictures of 105mm and 120 non-lethal crowd control rounds for MBT main guns being developed in Israel.

Useful when you need to use the main gun for some shock effect, but don't want to step it up to lethal force ;D.   It would sure look better on the media than dispersing protesters with beehive rounds.

Perhaps our tankers may find gainful employment at the next WTO summit?


Non- lethal or not, I'm sure the sight of a leopard thundering towards them with the main gun blazing would really dampen the mood of any protestor mob.....

How do these work?  I mean how can you recieve a 120mm shell in the face and live to tell the tale?

 

[a_majoor]

If by we you mean the CF, the answer is "no", we will simply have to go about it in a different way.

There are lots of threads here in the "Combat Arms" section which discuss this very issue, look at "Infantry of Tomorrow", "Thinking about the section attack", "Canadian Armoured Cavalry" and  "Combat team of tomorrow" for some examples of our thinking.

Given that machines like the Achzarit or Namer are not going to be on our plate for a generation, direct assaults or mounted assaults are out, but dismounted action or manoeuvre warfare will be the way to go.

 

[Love793]

Generally we don't like taking tanks into cities.  BUAs are defenders paradises, and it's way too easy to funnel all types of vehicles into kill zones.  A M1 or a Challenger (Leopard2 for that matter) may be able to withstand a RPG, however when you start mixing mortars and AT Guns into the mix, it will amount to a death trap.

Using BUAs as harbours on the other hand, I happen to be a huge fan of.  It masks the thermal signature of a vehicle, allows for more maintenance to be performed and allows a more efficient crew rest schedule.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

If by we you mean the CF, the answer is "no", we will simply have to go about it in a different way.

There are lots of threads here in the "Combat Arms" section which discuss this very issue, look at "Infantry of Tomorrow", "Thinking about the section attack", "Canadian Armoured Cavalry" and   "Combat team of tomorrow" for some examples of our thinking.

Given that machines like the Achzarit or Namer are not going to be on our plate for a generation, direct assaults or mounted assaults are out, but dismounted action or manoeuvre warfare will be the way to go.

I guess I'm the odd man out on this topic, but it feels like we're taking the main blade out of our Swiss Army Knife and for analogy's sake are going to attempt to filet a fish with our corkscrew (because that's what we have left).



M. 

 

[ArmyRick]

Thats a good question?

 

[George Wallace]

How do these work?   I mean how can you recieve a 120mm shell in the face and live to tell the tale?

Being NON-LETHAL rounds, I highly doubt that it would be 120mm in size.  It could be Cannister, filled with plastic or rubber balls or something, rather than metal Flachettes.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Maybe it would be like Oddball's paint rounds for his Sherman in Kelly's Heroes. 

Now, in all seriousness I've read about some weird and wonderful non-lethal weapons that could possibly be made in a tank-round form.  Perhaps some kind of sticky foam that entraps people?  It would have to be very light propellent load.  The giant rubber-ball cannister round that George suggests could certainly be tried (fire it at the ground).

That being said, tanks might actually incite a crowd further.
 
2B

 

[George Wallace]

That "STUN" rd may only be a larger BLANK rd that would produce a large concusion and actually have no "Round" coming out.  Much like "Flash-Bang" grenades.

 

[Zipper]

Ouch!

Considering what a flash-bang does to the eardrum and the "stun" effect of its concussion, I can only imagine the possable damage one of these "tank" rounds would have on any close proximity crowds. And having them filled with rubber balls similar to riot bullets but at a higher velocity would be scary to soft skinned protesters.

Sheesh

 

[TCBF]

"Perhaps our tankers may find gainful employment at the next WTO summit?"

They did on the last one.

120mm Stun Round.  Yeah, we used to call it a 105mm BLANK.  I recommend sticking the barrel into a widow/door of the house full of idiots and telling the gunner to fire.  Stunned they will be. 

120 mm rubber rounds.  Obviosly, the FALLEX stories of tailtape rolls soaked in naptha and fired out of the main armament using a blank have worn off.  All the rubber balls will do is make it hard for the X-Ray Techs to find the ball in the last body it happened to traverse, whether or not you bounce it off the road.  Like the opening scene in "Swordfish", only without the pretty polished steel colours.

The tightening plastic sticky bands over a crowd is a cool idea.  Right out of "The Chrysalids, but in a non-lethal way. 

You get the psy-ops types to make sure the rioters get lots of water and Timmies coffee into them first, then you glue band a bunch of them.  After about an hour of trying to scratch the mosquitos they didn't notice until they couldn't move their hands, one of them will realize he has to pee.  Then things get real funny, real fast.  Imagine the smell on a hot summer day.  ;D  Bring the vidoe camera, and show the movies at the Troop piss-up later that evening.

Tom

 

[a_majoor]

It is hard to imagine how a 210 or 105mm tank round works as a stun round: too close and the energy is too great for human targets, too far away and any pellets, foam, chemical etc will be widely dispersed.

The tank's electrical system could be used to power a bank of strobe lights flashing  in a pattern designed to induce epileptic siezures; the crew could be buttoned up and cover the episcopes while the dazzler is in action.

 

[George Wallace]

It is hard to imagine how a 210 or 105mm tank round works as a stun round: too close and the energy is too great for human targets, too far away and any pellets, foam, chemical etc will be widely dispersed.

Actually it has already been done.....as Tom said....tank barrel in window....fire 105 blank.  Great for house clearing.  Does do some serious damage to ears, etc.  Also experienced by Infantry in the Quick Attack in numerous Training Scenarios, where 105 Blanks have been fired too close to supporting Infantry positions in the Attack.

The tank's electrical system could be used to power a bank of strobe lights flashing   in a pattern designed to induce epileptic siezures; the crew could be buttoned up and cover the episcopes while the dazzler is in action.

Actually the Tank electrical system is not all that powerful.  It only takes something like 1.5 volts to fire the main gun.  Other electronics quickly drain the batteries when the engine is not running, so an Auxiliary Engine and/or Generator would have to be installed to do what you suggest here.

GW