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TCCCS not compatible with US radios?!

Michael Dorosh said:
I don't understand why we standardize ammunition within NATO but not equally vital stuff like communications equipment....Seriously, why standardize some parts and not the others?

The two key issues are proprietary rights (patents and copyrights) of the companies producing the equipment....and ricebowls. The first is a reasonably simple money issue.

Ricebowls covers the need to protect and develop domestic industries and encourage research (which tends to create advances just as standardization catches up); every politician has local constituents they need to employ or otherwise feed money to.

NATO and ABCA standardization actually does amazing work considering the assorted national stumbling blocks, but sometimes the ricebowl can be as petty as some Major-level staff officer protecting his portion of the cubicle farm as PER season approaches (painful example= Sigs guy not talking to IO guy, so that Sigs guy's "proposal" makes him look "forward thinking, embraces transformation, blah, blah" on PER. Unfortunately, the proposal was stand-alone and not particularly promising even within a Canadian-alone context, let alone interoperability...so how much time was wasted?).
 
Add frequency hopsets and the frequency management system to the list of things which makes standardizing signal systems a bit more complex than standardizing, say, aircraft towing hooks (although that was complex enough and is (was) vitally important when one considers what happens when damaged aircraft land on foreign, but allied, aerodromes).

We need to put the signaling system into its proper context – it is part of a command and control system which includes, inter alia: personnel (with the training implications), procedures, facilities (including computer systems) and communications.

Reminder: what is now TCCCS began, in the mid ‘70s as a project called ACCS 85.  Col, later LGen, Jim Fox (armoured corps) was its patron.  It was managed by a mixed team of combat arms and signal officers – signal officers with plenty of recent (then) and useful (then - North German plain) field experience.  The acronym stood for Army Command and Control System 1985 – the thinking, then, being that ten years was enough time to design, develop and field a system which would be based on proven, mostly off-shore, hardware.  The signaling systems called up in the combat development studies (Terry Liston (R22R) led the infantry study team) was, essentially, a slice of the British Ptarmigan system to serve brigade and divisional HQs (and to extend one or two ‘trunk’ links down to battalions and regiments) and a generic combat net radio system.  (Despite all the bells and whistles there have, I think, been few changes in combat net radio systems since the early ‘60s – maybe even before that.  Nets are still nets, ranges are still extended by RRBs, the nature is ‘one > all’ broadcasting, with complete nets being the exception, rather than the rule.)

Suffice it to say that when I retired, nearly 20 years after ACCS-85 was born, TCCCS was still not there.  By the mid ‘80s we had a home made and decidedly interim trunk (switched telephone/teletype) system to serve brigade and ‘task force’ HQ.  It was a systematic copy of the British Bruin system with which many Canadian senior officers were both familiar and comfortable.  Computers began to creep into the field about the time I left – they had been the weakest link, I think in ACCS-85, we (combat arms and signals people, alike) simply didn’t know enough and we relied, too heavily, on our UK and US allies who were headed off in different directions.  The gunners led the way with e.g. TACFIRE and BATES and we were amazed at the Brit’s embryonic WAVELL systems – but that’s all water under the bridge.

TCCCS finally got to contract for one, and only one reason: CDC agreed to build something in Calgary.  NDHQ (the signals guys, especially) had all kinds of strong views re: what should be built.  They even told the Minister of National Defence; I don’t know what he said to anyone.  I am 99% certain that all important decisions were taken by Dan Mazankowski, the Minister of Finance and, more important, the regional minister for Alberta; I am 95% certain that Mazankowski cared little and understood less about military technical requirements – he understood that CDC had the corporate where-with-all to set up shop in Calgary, build an acceptable radio system and create jobs.  Given the national aim, regional development, TCCS is wildly successful – CDC sold out to General Dynamics (I think that’s right) and they in turn sold TCCCS II to the Brits.  (maybe things came full circle.)


 
Do a google search on BOWMAN. They have software based radios, more advanced data terminals etc etc.
 
The ANPRC 522 /ANVRC 513 (V1) and ANVRC 513 (V2) which all use the RT 5121 is an excellent radio. It is compatable with US, British, and any NATO which use the VINCENT (VINSON?) standard. Most of my experience with the 522 errors are mostly due to improper maintenance or programming by people who do not have a clue what they are doing. If properly programed with all the codes and such under the IRIS system the units forward of the Coy CP in the field should never have to do more than change the batteries. Im not sure if I should say much more on that on this forum but if the people stayed awake in the THEORY portion of their 103, ATCIS, QL3 etc courses (which I have taught) they would know what I am talking about. The TCCCS system when fully employed (not peice meal) is an excellent system.

The ANPRC 521 is (and hear it comes) a good radio. It is meant for inter-section communtications. When it first came out and they took our 77 sets, we were told by our offecuh that they were replacing the 77sets role as manpacks. The 521s full capabilites are not being employed due to the changes in the organization of TCCCS (where every one had a lap top on their back).

If you must complain about the radios complain about the batteries that go with em. if you actually have to use them on operation get Lithium batteries. For both. The NICADs arent being properly maintained (its impossiable to maintain them as required by the maintenance manual.) Oh the harness should be swaped with the small packs. I had to carry two 522 manpacks on my back for 2 weeks in Fort Pickett (where I had secure comes with the US ARMY equipment) it was heavy but comfortable.
 
Oh and another thing, it doesnt matter what  vhf radio you have and who makes it TERRAIN will play a huge factor when you cant get comms. Remember VHF is LOS. If your goiung to be static for a few hrs in afgan the sandy dry conditions do not reflect any radio waves well. (Think Wainright)  build a counterpoise around your antenna. Or build a directional antenna to blow your powerr in one direction, or pop up on your HF guard Net with the 138 lol wait they dont use that now. hmmmm

 
Weekendsig said:
The ANPRC 522 /ANVRC 513 (V1) and ANVRC 513 (V2) which all use the RT 5121 is an excellent radio. It is compatable with US, British, and any NATO which use the VINCENT (VINSON?) standard. Most of my experience with the 522 errors are mostly due to improper maintenance or programming by people who do not have a clue what they are doing. If properly programed with all the codes and such under the IRIS system the units forward of the Coy CP in the field should never have to do more than change the batteries. Im not sure if I should say much more on that on this forum but if the people stayed awake in the THEORY portion of their 103, ATCIS, QL3 etc courses (which I have taught) they would know what I am talking about. The TCCCS system when fully employed (not peice meal) is an excellent system.

The ANPRC 521 is (and hear it comes) a good radio. It is meant for inter-section communtications. When it first came out and they took our 77 sets, we were told by our offecuh that they were replacing the 77sets role as manpacks. The 521s full capabilites are not being employed due to the changes in the organization of TCCCS (where every one had a lap top on their back).

If you must complain about the radios complain about the batteries that go with em. if you actually have to use them on operation get Lithium batteries. For both. The NICADs arent being properly maintained (its impossiable to maintain them as required by the maintenance manual.) Oh the harness should be swaped with the small packs. I had to carry two 522 manpacks on my back for 2 weeks in Fort Pickett (where I had secure comes with the US ARMY equipment) it was heavy but comfortable.

Even as though Jordan is no longer with us, his comments ring true today as they did when he first posted this...

GO!!! said:
I find it disturbing that the default answers from the sigs world for any TCCCS complaint seems to be;

1) You, the complainant, are too stupid to use the kit.

2) You, the complainant have not installed it properly.

3) You, the complainant, are not using th kit as designed.

Since we are trained to be the operators of said kit by signals units, the problem evidently lies in the training. Somehow we manage to get everything else right (pants on legs before boots, pointy end towards bad guy) but as soon as the radios don't work, it must be due to operator error or something dumb like not screwing the antennae all the way on.

This, quite frankly, is BS.

We are working within the limitations of a deeply flawed system, and I find it amazing that we get as much out of it as we do. The sooner the sigs world recognises that this abomination of a comms system needs to be replaced, the better off we will be, egos and kingdoms be damned. 

 
Ayup...

The moment people depart from the acronym "KISS" all hell breaks loose.
The time it took for the deployment of TCCS was another problem.  They give the course while the equipment still hasn't been distributed.  By the time the hardware got out to the troops, everyone had forgotten the hands on & theory they had been given.

It's like a car, using the equipment has to be intuitive - without need to refer to the instruction manual for typical operations.  If you need the instruction manual to get basic operations out of the darned thing, it's too complicated for general use..... IMHO!
 
This is respone to the followers of  GO!!!. So, lets look at it like this. C7, the basic service rifle has basic IA's and stoppages just like every other weapon. Just because I know those drills does not mean I can shoot something at 300 m. Unless you practice these drills and the principles of marksmanship, your an ineffective rifleman. You say the radio is to complicated. I say sit down and try the learn the damn thing. I dont remember junk from my conversion crse. But i got fed up being a lousy shot ,so to speak, and people bsing me about the gremlins in the system and how it sucks. So what did I do I broke out my OPERARTOR CARD and played with it.
And literally all you have to do is turn it on and press 4 digits and your on that freq.
You say the 522 is to complicated and the older stuff was better. The older stuff, was broken, repaired 100 times and put back into service with rebuilt parts. It could not go secure with out another peice of kit that was more complicated and a cable that broke easily if twisted the wrong way. So when you went on Op in the 60's and 70's you lugged around a peice of crypto along with your radio or your were transmitting in the clear.
You had to learn 3 different radios before and how to encrypt them, what crypto went with each, learn that crypto. And the variants of each of those radios.Yeah real easy.  The only difference now is how much power your putting out.  All you remember is the 77 set and having to talk to range control. Try organizing 2 or more combat nets each with fixed call signs all transmitting in the clear and same freq  and the Infanty are using 1, the Armored are using 1 and the guys they have on the radio slept through the lecture on Arm Indicators (ACP 125).
Im tired of people whining about it when the just sit back on the course and joke the entire time. I have taught Army Navy and Airforce, the 522 both reg and reserve. You not going to learn it if you take the lecture time to sleep.
Accept the fact that the radio is here its not going anywhere for a long time. Suck it up and learn it. Unlike the C7 you can drop this in a pond get it cover in mud, and smack it off a rock and it will still work. 
 
You do realize your there to support us right, so if easier radio's to operate for us means more work for you then perhaps its you that should suck it up.
 
Weekendsig said:
This is respone to the followers of  GO!!!. So, lets look at it like this. C7, the basic service rifle has basic IA's and stoppages just like every other weapon. Just because I know those drills does not mean I can shoot something at 300 m. Unless you practice these drills and the principles of marksmanship, your an ineffective rifleman. You say the radio is to complicated. I say sit down and try the learn the damn thing. I dont remember junk from my conversion crse. But i got fed up being a lousy shot ,so to speak, and people bsing me about the gremlins in the system and how it sucks. So what did I do I broke out my OPERARTOR CARD and played with it.
And literally all you have to do is turn it on and press 4 digits and your on that freq.
You say the 522 is to complicated and the older stuff was better. The older stuff, was broken, repaired 100 times and put back into service with rebuilt parts. It could not go secure with out another peice of kit that was more complicated and a cable that broke easily if twisted the wrong way. So when you went on Op in the 60's and 70's you lugged around a peice of crypto along with your radio or your were transmitting in the clear.
You had to learn 3 different radios before and how to encrypt them, what crypto went with each, learn that crypto. And the variants of each of those radios.Yeah real easy.  The only difference now is how much power your putting out.   All you remember is the 77 set and having to talk to range control. Try organizing 2 or more combat nets each with fixed call signs all transmitting in the clear and same freq  and the Infanty are using 1, the Armored are using 1 and the guys they have on the radio slept through the lecture on Arm Indicators (ACP 125).
Im tired of people whining about it when the just sit back on the course and joke the entire time. I have taught Army Navy and Airforce, the 522 both reg and reserve. You not going to learn it if you take the lecture time to sleep.
Accept the fact that the radio is here its not going anywhere for a long time. Suck it up and learn it. Unlike the C7 you can drop this in a pond get it cover in mud, and smack it off a rock and it will still work. 

I've been watching your posts and ever increasing condascending attitude. You've been quite busy in the few days you've been here. Experience is one thing, but if I was a univesity student from Newfoundland, I might tend to tread somewhat more carefully around here.
 
Weekendsig,

I have to disagree with some of your points. I dont think the 522 system is in anyway user friendly espescialy when in a vehicle LAN and combined with SAS, Athena or a RAU and that poses a problem for soldiers that are requiered to use it on a daily basis and who are counting on it as their life-line. It can be finacky, it doesn't like extreme heat and it can rarely be fixed by techs and generaly gets a BLR card when it screws up.

The 521 is a horendous waste of time and energy. My PRR works farther and better than this "good radio" as you call it.

The small pack does not a radio carrier make. When I dismount (and I dismount a lot) I have a 522, a PRR, a C8, A pistol, 300 rds of 5.56 (gotta carry extra for "the boss") 4 batteries, water and spare First Aid supplies. That pack does'nt cut it.

There are still multiple radios for these guys to learn. Minimally they need the 522, 521, 117, and PRR. To that list you can add the 148 MBITER and the Iridium with sleeve (we still have 138s in 2 Bde btw). The easier it is, the better.

I take great pride in being a Sig and in being the bosses GIB. I know that when my guys hit the PTT someone will hear them and if that fails then I have failed. Your apparent attitude sounds a lot like the same one that has helped to perpetuate the "fricken Jimmies" attitude that I face and fight on a regular basis.

Just my .02 and if I'm out of line mods, I apologise.
 
Canadian Sig said:
Weekendsig,

I take great pride in being a Sig and in being the bosses GIB. I know that when my guys hit the PTT someone will hear them and if that fails then I have failed. Your apparent attitude sounds a lot like the same one that has helped to perpetuate the "fricken Jimmies" attitude that I face and fight on a regular basis.

Just my .02 and if I'm out of line mods, I apologise.

Nope, you're good here.

The Army.ca Staff
 
Your, right I was rude and Im sorry. It wasnt my intention to be condenscending. I was frtustrtated at reading Go!!!'s comments. However the 522 in it basic manpack form is not complicated. SAS, Athene systems are not the ANPRC 522, ANVRC 513 V1 or V2. My arguement was specific to that peice of kit.  I have limited experience with SAS and cannot comment on it. I stand by my statement that the 522 is not a hard radio to learn if given time to practice the basic programming. It is in the end IA's and stoppages so to speak after all.

To  Canadian Sig, you are right when you say there are complications with the Iris system within the LAN, LDN, WAN etc. There are bugs and I do not expect some one with an ATCIS crse to operate and man a fully bombed up CP. This is no fault of the radio, itself, for me my problems are always in the NAU. Most of the problems for me early on were remedied when we got the proper 5 K TKG in our unit instead of running of a 2k AC mil spec genny.  Power is a big thing with that system i find running off off the truck power causes more problems than its worth. But there are still bugs that sometimes a hard reboot will only fix.  Again, the people I support will always have comms and

To recce Guy,
What does my education have to do with anything? You obviously know who I am. I dont know who you are but i would appreicate it if you didnt further identfiy me. I do know that the army provides the courses and therefore the opportunity for its soldiers to learn the equipment. Again, my comments were in respone to GO!!!'s thread.

Again, I do apologize for sounding condesending. Just getting flash backs to JNCO when I asked whats a carl g and the looks I got from the Crse sgt.
 
Weekendsig said:
To recce Guy,
What does my education have to do with anything? You obviously know who I am. I dont know who you are but i would appreicate it if you didnt further identfiy me. I do know that the army provides the courses and therefore the opportunity for its soldiers to learn the equipment. Again, my comments were in respone to GO!!!'s thread.

Simply, that most of the comments here come from guys with operational experience, not just something they picked up on course, or at a school. It matters not, how well it works in a classroom or controlled enviroment, or when you've got time to fiddle fuck with it. When the rubber hits the road, and it fucks up, it's no better than a boat anchor. I used the education thing as a polite way of telling you to quit looking down your nose at the people that have BTDT and have to use your cherished equipment. However, you've apologised, so I'll let it drop with one final word. Go read, or re-read the guidelines, before you post further. It'll save you some heartache down the line.
 
Apart from the fact that we are rumoured to have spent seven billion dollars on the TCCCS project and only have two billion dollars worth of rapidly aging dodgy kit to show for it, I have no real problem with it.  The fact that our unification-bred CF Comm Command alledgedly stacked the TCCCS committee with every colour of uniform but Green might have something to do with that. 

I do know that the old man-pack radios worked in the rain and the 522s don't always.  And that you can give the IUCE a nervous breakdown by pushing the buttons on your CI to fast. And that we went to KAF in 2002 with TCCCS and our Techs still had not been issued any Sevicing or Diagnostic manuals for the kit, nor did they have the level of test kits they had for the old stuff. 

But hey, I'm sure all the relevant decision makers are now happily super-annuated and working for Harris, or Collins, or whatever.

Funny how that works.
 
My personal feeling on the TCCCS system is that it's unreliable and far from user-friendly. Obviously my experience with it it limited, but even on simple reserve weekend exercises, where distances are well within the 'paper performance range' of the radio system, comms failures are a constant headache. I recall for Cougar Salvo 05, when we all lined up for the Coy radio check, and we all went round to verify we were on the same channels.

"channel 1, guys."  ... "ok, they're all good."  "channel 2?"  "F___ck, hold on, i can't hear you three"  - that was a pretty common part of the game. Heck, just this weekend, i sat down for a TCCCS refresher for IBTS. The sigs Sgt giving the lecture said the system was flawed, and deserved some criticism, but that it was, overall, a decent setup. In that same class, even with instructor supervision, we had issues getting the 522s and 521s to talk to one another. I remember looking at the handout and seeing the page-long table of error codes and thinking "Something that can have this many known things go wrong with it has some issues!"

my 0.02
 
I am that Sigs Sgt.  And I said that the system was ok.  We could probably do better, but TCCCS is what we have now.  I also said that problems were often, not always, related to operator training or other factors within the user's control, which was the case in that classroom.  The problem we had in there, if you recall, is that the radio headsets provided as trg aides by your unit are nearly all N/S.  If more operators were trained to troubleshoot your kit properly, identify those faults, and take initiative to report them so that they would get corrected, you'd have less problems.  Those headsets were broken the last time I ran training for you guys too, by the way, and I reported it to your guys then.  I would recommend that action be taken this time.

The system isn't the best.  But you're going to have broken headsets with any system, and if you guys don't do your maintenance then problems are going to be the result. 

And on a personal note, I'm willing to go over there and help if that's what's required.
 
Sorry for the misquote! :blotto:

I understand where you're coming from. I really do wish i was able to troubleshoot the system properly. When I'm talking with it, and one minute people can hear me, and the next they can't, I usually tend to get frustrated immediately. Usually it ends up being the aforementioned headsets, but at the same time it might be low battery power or something else. All that we can do is shrug our shoulders and say "well, it's N/S." We turn the radios in at the end of the day, tell the CQ that it's got an N/S headset, and he sends it away somewhere. I think though, that in the end we get the same headsets returned to us. Later on, they fail again and the cycle repeats itself.  Granted, i've gone through days on end in the CP where the 522 operates flawlessly.

I agree with what you said in the classroom that the radios and their EIS needs to be periodically replaced at the end of their service life. I know of more than a few mangled whip antennaes that are still in service, along with other items of kit.


At some point, i want to take a comms course (if there's one for officers, that is. I don't know if one is available for the infantry variety) because i like knowing how my kit works, and also how to work my kit properly. I think it might be a good idea to try to arrange a big comms training night sometime after Xmas and just get everyone basically familiar with the TCCCS system, with a big focus on diagnostics and troubleshooting.
 
TCCCS is a subsystem of IRIS. IRIS is compatabile with NATO communications systems. The ANPRC 522 when loaded with all its crypto (not freq hop) can work secure with American manpack equivalent in secure voice. American Singcars (spelling?) is a communication standard for the US ARMY. It is compatiable with NATO communications systems. When IRIS and SINGCARS are setup independently, (striclty independent of each other) they can do more like freq hop, call home, make a cup of coffee ;) etc. However, when you mix the two you loose alot of your bells and whistles in order to be more cohesive as a NATO force. (Unless you have a strategic link up between the two. This would be way above a COY level)

IRIS is the fully digital system and does as whats advertised. To a point. When you load the 522 your putting out a digital signal because all your putting out is data. A bunch of 1's and 0's are being imprinted on the wave thus giving you a digital wave ( as I understand it. I could be wrong). When your transmit in the clear your imprinting your voice on the wave. Thats why when you listen very carfully you can make out what someone is saying when the signal is weak (squech off). Therefore you get a regule sine wave.But with the digital signal you wont be able to make out the msg because the radio needs all the data in order to decrypt the message. Data, however, is just 1's and 0's and is able to get through interferance because of its nature. Regards to the comms course or officers there is the ATICS course taught in Edmonton and Gagetown. Its an all ranks course for combat and combat support trades. They usually run 4 throughout the year.
But with op tempo I dont know whats on the go with it now. 
 
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