The 2008 Canadian Election- Merged Thread

[Edward Campbell]

Finally, someone who calls a spade a spade....

A bit of private black humour has the sanctimonious seeing red
CHRISTIE BLATCHFORD cblatchford@globeandmail.com September 20, 2008
Article Link

In the past week, I flew with one airline where the salted snacks were corn nuts (WestJet) and with another (Air Canada) where they were sesame crunchies - anything but real nuts, which are the new cigarettes, so verboten that the mere sight of them in their sealed foil-wrap bag in someone else's possession is deemed dangerous and offensive ...

Much More on link

I agree with Blatchford, too, but my comments, here stand.

Blatchford addresses a very real problem of hypocrisy in politics and, above all, in the media. But that is just one problem and it is, probably, impossible for any political leader to address.

The improper insertion of partisan politics deep into the public's business - that which is conducted on the people's behalf by their public servants - is easier, indeed simple to solve. A clear directive, ruthlessly enforced, would put things 'right' in days.

 

[Edward Campbell]

This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from yesterday’s Globe and Mail is a day old (and I’ve been focusing on the rolling, daily polls) but still useful:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080919.welxnpoll20/BNStory/politics/home

Voters in swing ridings worried by U.S. economic crisis

OMAR EL AKKAD

Globe and Mail Update
September 19, 2008 at 9:43 PM EDT

OTTAWA — Voters in key battleground ridings across Canada are overwhelmingly concerned about the economic crisis south of the border, a new poll shows.

Voters in those ridings also said they believe the Conservatives are best able to handle the situation.

According to a Strategic Counsel poll conducted for The Globe and Mail and CTV, the vast majority of those surveyed in some of the most closely contested ridings in the country are concerned about the U.S. economic meltdown. The trend is most pronounced in B.C. battleground ridings, where 84 per cent of respondents said they were concerned, followed by 81 per cent in Ontario and 74 per cent in Quebec.

When asked which party was best able to handle the crisis, voters picked the Conservatives in all three provinces. In British Columbia, 45 per cent picked the Tories, compared to 21 per cent for the Liberals, 9 per cent for the NDP, 1 per cent for the Green Party and 24 per cent who picked other parties, were undecided or didn't know.

The Conservatives also came out on top when voters in Ontario and Quebec were asked the same question, registering 37-per-cent and 32-per-cent support, respectively.

More than half those surveyed in British Columbia said the Conservative government's management of the Canadian economy will keep it from following the United States into crisis, while 47 per cent said the same in Ontario. In Quebec, however, only 37 per cent agreed with that statement, compared to 45 per cent who said the Conservatives had done nothing to protect the Canadian economy.

But when asked how likely it was that the U.S. financial crisis would cause them to reconsider the way they vote, a significantly smaller percentage of voters said they would reconsider their choices. Only 22 per cent of those polled in British Columbia said they were likely to reconsider. In Quebec, 26 per cent of voters said the same. In Ontario, where the economy is a huge election issue, almost 30 per cent of voters said they were likely to reconsider for whom they vote.

The poll, conducted Sept. 16 to 18, tracks 45 of the closest ridings in British Columbia, Ontario and Quebec. Of the 45 ridings, 20 are in Ontario, 15 are in Quebec and 10 are in British Columbia. In the last election or by-election, the Liberals won 17 of them, the Conservatives 16, the Bloc Québécois eight and the NDP four.

Surveys are conducted daily, with three-day running tallies comprising a poll of 1,325 Canadians.

As readers of this thread know Strategic Counsel recognized the essential truth that elections are pretty routine matters with largely foregone conclusions in, say, 200 of Canada’s 308 constituencies – there are many, many safe seats for the BQ, Cons, Libs and even the NDP. Strategic Counsel decided to focus their efforts on 45 ridings in ON (20), QC (15) and BC (10) that were close in 2006.

While I think their sample is dangerously slanted it is interesting to read their observations. Especially now that the economy is, as CNN says in the US, Issue #1.

 

[combatbuddha]

From the PAFFO note I was forwarded, it mentioned that we are not to comment on the upcoming election while in uniform. It said nothing about off duty hours.

 

[Edward Campbell]

This is a directive from the Privy Council Office that effects every part of government, not just DND. It is not just comment that is closed – some contract work will not be allowed to proceed lest it appear that the government is “playing politics” with the day-to-day business of government. It particularly applies to senior officials/officers – no one wants a “decade of darkness” comment from a senior person during an election campaign.

Nothing in this, as far as I can understand, applies to individuals' right to participate, privately, in the political process – you can speak your mind, you can put a sign on your lawn. Just don’t, if you are serving, put a regimental crest on the lawn sign!

 

[Neill McKay]

To give an indication of how far down this has trickled, in my area cadet units are not supposed to alter their websites during the election campaign so, in theory, my list of upcoming activities should continue to show September's activities until well into October.

 

[Kirkhill]

                 BQ ↓ CON ↓ GRN ↓ LIB ↓ NDP ↓
2006                  10.5 36.3 4.5 30.2 17.5

Nanos                   7 38 8 31 16
Harris-Decima   8 38 10 27 15
Ekos                   8 37 11 25 19
Ipsos-Reid                   8 38 11 29 13
Angus Reid   9 39 9 24 20
Average                  8 38 10 27 17

Variation
Nanos                 18% 2% 13% 2% 11%
Harris-Decima 4% 5% 8% 3% 5%
Angus Reid 13% 3% 6% 4% 2%
Average                12% 3% 9% 3% 6%

Support Base 77% 104% 214% 89% 95%


Playing around with These Numbers and considering This Chart.

I looked at the data within each company first, averaging their results over the period from about 1 Sept to 17 Sept.  As the Graph shows the campaign seems to have entrenched.  The data bears that out as well  There is no momentum.  There is no horse race.  There is statistically insignificant  normal variation.

As it stands  the Conservatives are on about  38%, up from 36.3% at the last election.  That is only an increase of 4% in their support  base (100 to 104) since 2006.  But that support base is remarkably loyal.  They waffle only 2-3% in their preferences.

The Liberals likewise have very loyal supporters, left, that are only waffling 2-3% but their support base has dropped by 11% (100 - 89) taking their numbers from 30% in 2006 to 27% now.

The Dippers are hanging on to their 17% but true to form they are a bit more wobbly - no doubt torn between principle (support their party) and fear/hate (Anybody But Stevie) - and even they may have lost some support .

The Big News is the Rise of the Greens - a whopping 114% increase in their support base (214-100) from 4.5 to 10%.    And that seems likely to be coming out of the hide of the Liberals, Dippers AND the Bloc.

And the Bloc - bleeding profusely it has lost 23% of its support base (100-77) to federalist parties across the spectrum.

If this holds then we may indeed be seeing a new alignment of the stars as the Liberal and Bloc Coalitions blow apart.  The Bloc because they are Johnny One Note - singing a monotonous tune of which everyone is tired.  And the Liberals, because they have been singing so many songs for so long nobody can make sense of what that noise is anymore - a discordant cacophony of tone-poem and static hiss.

The Left may take a while to get its act together here.  The Liberals run the risk of going the way of their British forebears - stuck between poles in the absence of a cross cultural tribe. 

I believe that Canada dodged the Class Wars to this date because the Liberals effectively brought French and Brit Catholics into a coalition that crossed class lines leaving rich protestants (Conservatives) and poor protestants (CCF socialists) to fight it out on the fringes.

It will be interesting to see where we go from here.

 

[dapaterson]

Something merely anecdotal,but it may be a sign of a deeper malaise.

Traditionally, jobs like erecting posters along the roadside are handed off to the more junior members of the campaign staff.  You know, the young volunteers not yet jaded or obsessed with power.  A party without such low-level workers is indeed in trouble.

Imagine my surprise this evening when I saw a former cabinet minister, all by himself, pounding stakes into the ground so he could erect signs for his wife's bid.  If the Liberals cannot find volunteers in Ottawa Centre and are resorting to having a former MND, David Collenette, putting up posters all by himself, there may be deeper problems within the Liberal party that this election will bring out.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Three more polls this morning:

Angus Reid says:

Steady Conservatives Ahead, As 2006 Liberal Voters Look Elsewhere
Jack Layton improves his standing, as Stéphane Dion struggles to generate momentum.

BQ: 9%
Cons: 38%
Greens: 10%
Libs: 24%
NDP: 19%

• The regional breakdowns see the Tories way ahead in Alberta (67%) and Manitoba and Saskatchewan (54%). The Conservatives now have a six-point advantage over the Liberals in seat-rich Ontario (38% to 32%), with the NDP at 14 per cent.

• In British Columbia, the Tories are leading the NDP (38% to 29%), with the Liberals (18%) and Greens (14%) far behind. The Greens also surpassed the 10-point threshold in Atlantic Canada, the Prairies, and Ontario.

• The survey shows the Conservatives holding on to 86 per cent of Canadians who supported them in the 2006 election. The retention rate for the Bloc is equally high at 85 per cent, while the NDP stands at 72 per cent. Only 58 per cent of decided voters who supported for the Liberals in the last House of Commons ballot are sticking with the same party this time around, with support bleeding to the NDP (16%), the Tories (13%), and the Greens (10%).

• As the second week of the federal campaign draws to a close, the approval rating for Conservative leader and Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper stands at 32 per cent, down four points in a week, while his momentum score is -21 (11% of respondents say their opinion of Harper has improved, while 32% say it has worsened).

• In the preferred prime minister question, Harper remains ahead with 36 per cent (-4), followed by Layton with 19 per cent (+3), Dion with eight per cent, May with five per cent, and Duceppe with four per cent. When assessing the potential of Harper and Dion at 24 Sussex, voters continue to pick the Tory leader by a four-to-one ratio.

• Harper also gets better numbers than his two main rivals in most qualities and characteristics. At least two-in-five respondents think of Harper as a strong and decisive leader (50%), who has a vision for Canada’s future (50%), understands complex issues (46%), and who can manage the economy effectively (40%).


Ipsos says:

BQ: 8%
Cons: 40%
Greens: 10%
Libs: 27%
NDP: 15%

• In seat-rich Ontario, where the biggest Conservative gains have been realized, the Tories (41%) have catapulted themselves into first place and are now running ahead of the Grits (33%), NDP (15%) and Green Party (10%).

• In Quebec, the Conservative (29%) are now tied with the Bloc (29%) for first position. The Liberals (23%) lag behind, as do the NDP and (13%) and the Green Party (6%).

• In British Columbia, the Conservatives (44%) are the front runners, while the Liberals (23%), NDP (19%) and Greens (14%) are splitting the rest of the vote.

• In Alberta, the Conservatives (61%) continue to dominate over the struggling Liberals (19%), NDP (11%) and Green Party (9%).

• In Saskatchewan and Manitoba, the Tories (51%) are also well ahead of the Grits (25%), the NDP (13%) and the Green Party (10%).

• In Atlantic Canada, a tight race is ensuing. Currently, the Liberals (33%) hold a slight lead over the NDP (29%), and the Conservatives (27%) are not far behind. The Green Party (11%) trails.

With this current poll contribution to that aggregate base, the projection shows the Conservatives just shy of a majority with 152 seats for the Conservatives, 95 for the Liberals, 34 for the Bloc and 27 for the NDP. (The seat model has been rendered by Dr. Barry Kay from the Laurier Institute for the Study of Public Opinion and Policy. The seat projection is based on an aggregate of polling data collected by LISPOP since the outset of the election, and this latest seat model has been updated to include this latest Ipsos Reid poll. Ipsos Reid does not create the seat model but contributes its findings to an aggregate base of polls used by Dr. Kay for the analysis.)

But, Ipsos adds, “it doesn’t appear that Canadians are getting too excited about this election when compared to previous elections. Only two in ten (21%) Canadians are paying more attention to this election than ones in the past. The majority (65%) say they’re giving it about the same amount of attention as others, while 14% even say they’re paying even less attention than previous elections.”


Nanos says:

Tories lead Grits by 9 points
First Ranked Ballot (N=1,203 Canadians, 986 decided voters)

BQ: 7% (NC from yesterday)
Cons: 38% (-1 from yesterday)
Greens: 7% (NC “ “)
Libs: 29% (+1 “ “)
NDP: 18% (NC " ")

 

[Edward Campbell]

And, if you haven’t had enough, here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the CBC’s webs site, is a report on the Harris-Decima polls:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/story/2008/09/21/poll-harris.html

Conservative lead widens, poll suggests
Liberal, Tory support falling, NDP and Greens gaining

Last Updated: Sunday, September 21, 2008 | 11:53 AM ET
CBC News

The Conservatives are leading the second-place Liberals by 16 points according to the most recent four-day Canadian Press Harris-Decima poll, released Sunday.

That's up two percentage points over the past week.

The national poll suggests the Conservatives are supported by 39 per cent of voters, compared with the Liberals at 23 per cent.

Percentage of voters supporting each party
Party     Sept. 17-20     Sept. 10-13
Conservative   39             40
Liberal             23             26
NDP                 17             15
Green             11               9
Bloc                 8                 8
Source: Canadian Press Harris-Decima polls

The Tories have dropped one percentage point over a week, and the Liberals are down three points.

The NDP is up two points at 17 per cent, and the Greens are also up two points at 11 per cent.

The Bloc Québécois (BQ), which is running candidates in Quebec alone, is unchanged at eight per cent.

The figures were based on the question: "If a federal election were held tomorrow, who do you think you would be voting for in your area," and then lists the parties.

The average sample was 1,344 with a margin of error of plus or minus 2.7 per cent.

In terms of leaders, the NDP's Jack Layton ranked first and the Liberal's Stéphane Dion a distant fifth.

The poll calculates the leaders' rankings by subtracting the percentage of people who said they had an unfavourable impression of the party leader from the percentage saying they had a favourable impression.

Layton's ranking is 16, the BQ's Gilles Duceppe 12, the Green's Elizabeth May 10, the Conservatives' Stephen Harper four, and Dion minus 24.

Given the 2.7% margin of error, the only real (statistically significant) change is in the Liberal’s support which – by the polls standards, has really declined. Within that margin Conservative support could be up a point and the Greens and NDP might be down.

 

[Kirkhill]

As you say Edward, could be and might be.

The Press is working awfully hard to drum up some interest in this horse race - except the Nags are old and running on a muddy track with nobody in the stands.  ;D

 

[Kat Stevens]

The sons do NOT always mirror the father...... :

Thank God for that.  Are we really ready for True Dough, The Next Generation (Tm)?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Mod squad, feel free to move this to a separate thread if warranted - shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Tories, Grits target military vote in '08 campaign
Mike Blanchfield, Canwest News Service, 21 Sept 08
Article link

As war in Afghanistan rages unabated, a critical political battle for the hearts and minds of Canada's military voters is shaping up in 17 key ridings across the country.

This electoral fight extends to both Canadian coasts, the near and far North, while encompassing Quebec and some key Ontario battlegrounds that include a suburban Ottawa big-box community, according to a computer-assisted analysis of Elections Canada data by Punditsguide.ca and Canwest News Service.

On Oct. 14, the Conservatives will look to build on their success in the 2006 election that brought them to power when they won 54 per cent of the federal ridings deemed to be home to either a Canadian Forces base or Defence Department office, while many other ridings contain smaller installations or reserve units.

Of the 308 federal ridings, 59 can be called military ridings, and on Jan. 23, 2006, the Conservatives were able to win 32 of them.

Of those 32 seats, 13 came from Ontario, where the Tories were able to win 40 over all. That wasn't enough for a Conservative breakthrough in Canada's most populous province, and this time, the Liberals are fighting hard to win back some traditionally loyal Grit strongholds they lost by the slimmest of margins.

During the campaign, Harper has also visited many military ridings held by the Bloc Quebecois.

In 2006, the Liberals won 14 military seats, the Bloc Quebecois won seven, the NDP got five, and a Quebec independent garnered one.

"The majority of soldiers tend to be small C conservatives so they'd probably tend to lean towards the patriotism and defence of the country. I think the Tories would benefit more," said retired major-general Lewis MacKenzie, who was a failed candidate for the old Progressive Conservatives 11 years ago, and who maintains he is strictly non-partisan now.

Two and a half years ago, the Conservatives campaigned on a platform of Arctic sovereignty, and promised almost $20 billion in new spending on military hardware, including ships, planes and armoured vehicles. Since then, 89 Canadian soldiers have been killed on Prime Minister Stephen Harper's watch.

More on link

 

[retiredgrunt45]

After watching and observing the four ring circus over the past 2 weeks, I've come to the conclusion that none of the main performers are "Master of Ceremony" material. It's like watching four clowns in the center ring performing a comedy act.

I had an idea at the beginning of the campaign who I would vote for, but as the circus continues on, I've come to the conclusion that none of the party leaders has offered me anything to chew on, but the same old worn out promises that we've been hearing about for the past 30 years which (very few have been kept) and some new ones thrown in, that in all honesty are to "out there" to ever see the light of day, let alone be of any consequence to the country, other than to keep wasting our money. All they've been doing so far is putting out fires in their own party lines and wasting my time. The 200 or so million of wasted dollars that this election will end up costing us, could have been better spent in so many other places in our economy.

So to me the change in strategy that the candidates have taken to appease and come of looking more paletable to the voters, as far as I'm concerned, is a waste of time. What, they think we all have a very short memory and can't see through the smoke and mirror facade, Give me a break. "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, then it's a duck.

Put away the charade and the smoke and the mirrors and enlighten us. At the very least give us some return on that 200 million that we're footing for this circus and show me why we should choose one of you clowns to lead this country. "Until that happens", it's still, just a circus and the clowns are still the main act.

 

[Edward Campbell]

This is another of the real issues.

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is a column by Lawrence Martin that asks a really important question:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080919.wcomartin22/BNStory/politics/home

Why is no one talking about immigration?

LAWRENCE MARTIN

From Monday's Globe and Mail
September 22, 2008 at 12:32 AM EDT

Here we go again. Another Canadian election where, for fear of the bigot label, there'll be no honest debate on immigration.

Talking about the downsides of immigration is something the people - but not the politicians - do. In this campaign, all parties favour higher immigration numbers.

It's not only politically correct but also seen to be politically beneficial. That's a powerful combination. But it results in public concerns being ignored - hot-button issues such as whether immigration results in increased crime and increased unemployment and whether it's leading to declining social standards.

While most politicians won't touch this stuff with a barge poll, one man daring to do so is James Bissett, a former bureaucrat and diplomat (he was Canada's ambassador to Yugoslavia in the early 1990s). Mr. Bissett was a member of a four-member task force in the 1960s that developed Canada's immigration points system. He later became executive director of the Canadian Immigration Service. He has a son married to a black woman and a daughter married to a Cuban.

Our politicians, he said in an interview, ignore the realities. We're heading into a downward economic spiral. There's a backlog of nearly a million applicants waiting to get in. More than half of recent immigrants are already living below the poverty line. The social costs, the costs to the treasury, are already imposing. Is this the time, he asks, to be calling for major increases in immigrant numbers? The Liberals and NDP are gung-ho, the Conservatives want only a modest jump in the 250,000 who come to Canada annually.

Mr. Bissett was in a recent TV debate with NDP immigration critic Olivia Chow. Things got heated. “Look, you're supposed to be a socialist,” Mr. Bissett told her as they exited the set, “and you want to bring in 330,000 to undercut Canadian unions and workers' wages?” She wasn't amused.

Mr. Bissett has, you might say, a rather cynical view of multiculturalism. In the old days, he explained, politicians used party funds to buy ethnic votes. But, in the 1970s, he said, they decided the taxpayers should pay. “They institutionalized multiculturalism. They set up a multiculturalism department with a big budget, and the big budget was used to bribe ethnic voters. On their annual national days, they get subsidies for their ethnic newspapers and so on.”

He cited a study showing that the 2.5 million immigrants who arrived in Canada between 1990 and 2002 received $18-billion more in government services and benefits than they paid in taxes.

You hear a lot of grumbling at cocktail parties, but, he noted, people don't speak out openly about the social and economic costs for fear of being labelled racist. Toronto and Vancouver are on their way to becoming Asian cities, Mr. Bissett said. That may be fine, but let's talk about it. “Or are we just going to kind of go sleepwalking into the 21st century?”

In the election campaign, the Liberals have promised to invest $800-million to deal with the immigration backlog. The Conservatives, who have been currying favour with ethnic groups since taking office, brought in a reform in the spring - one that Mr. Bissett supports - that restores the power of government to regulate the numbers and deal with the backlog.

Under the original formula Mr. Bissett helped to set up, occupational demand in Canada was a key criterion for getting in. But that proviso was dropped in 2001 - and helped create today's huge backlog.

Because of the aging population, the Liberals contend that immigration will account for all of Canada's new labour and population growth during the next five years. Citing examples such as Finland and Japan where labour forces are declining, Mr. Bissett maintains that a larger labour force doesn't mean higher living standards.

Many have an old-fashioned romantic idea of immigration, he said, but this is a different world. “You don't go out to the Prairies and make sod huts for the winter and plant seeds for the summer.” He agrees Canada has a humanitarian role to play, but his view is that it is better done through greatly increased foreign aid than adding 300,000 job seekers annually in difficult times.

Mr. Bissett's view of immigration is a harsh one. But he has the courage to air what a lot of people are thinking. The issue speaks too much to the future of the country for there to be silence.

I agree and disagree with James Bissett; I agree we must ask and answer some key questions. For example:

• What shape of Canada do we want – do we want Vancouver to be an Asian city? Does it matter if Vancouver becomes an "Asian city?"

• Do we know what we mean when we say “Asian city?”

• What is the ROI (return on investment) for immigrants? Is it not until the second generation (the first one born in Canada) that most immigrant become productive? (There’s that word, again.)

• Does culture mater? Do some immigrant ‘communities’ settle, integrate and prosper more readily than others? If Yes (as I believe is the case) then why do we ‘recruit’ any immigrants from ‘communities’ (countries or cultures) that have high failure rates?  Conversely, if culture does mater, why don’t we focus our immigration efforts in the countries/regions with the ‘best’ track records for integration and prosperity?

• To what extent does systemic racism explain the high failure rates of some immigrant ‘communities?’ What, if anything, can we do about racism? Do we understand the differences between personal and institutional racism? 

• How do we separate and explain that immigration and refugee policy are quite different things? How do we develop a sound, sensible refugee policy that keeps refugees safe and close to (their) home?

 

[Edward Campbell]

This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail web site, is rather like dapasterson’s recent contribution, anecdotal, but it reflects on the ‘value’ of Celine Stéphane Dion’s income trusts promise:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/markets

Snoozing over income trusts

David Berman, today at 11:05 AM EDT

Wow, the Liberal party plans to save income trusts by scrapping the Conservative government's punitive tax, which is scheduled to kick in in 2011 and effectively make trusts obsolete. Instead, the Liberals propose a 10 per cent tax on existing trusts, which would be refunded to domestic investors.

If the market believed that the Liberals had any hope of gaining power in the upcoming election, income trusts would likely be roaring back to life on Monday, as investors bet that those appealing yields are here to stay. Instead, trusts appear to reflect little hope for the Liberal plan: The units are yawning.

The S&P/TSX income trust index was down 0.5 per cent in late morning trading. Yellow Pages Income Trust, arguably a benchmark for the income trust sector, rose slightly at the start of trading but later sagged 0.3 per cent. Canadian Oil Sands Trust fell 2.6 per cent.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The Ritz story certainly has “legs,” as the journalists say.

Assuming Gerry Ritz is fairly safe in his seat (he got 14,666 votes out of 27,332 in the last election and his nearest competitor, an NDipper, was 10,000+ votes behind) and will be re-elected, gaffe or not, minister or not, the question becomes: should Harper –

1. Fire Ritz, now, allowing Public Works Minister Christian Paradis (who is still Secretary of State (Agriculture)) to carry on? or

2. Accept the resignation of Mr. Ritz? Or

3. Tough it out?

Option 1 has two advantages:

I. It appears to be what a lot of Canadians want, right now. Many Canadians are not buying the “stress” defence and the media will not let this go away soon – it’s selling soap; and

II. It makes Harper appear decisive and “caring.”

Option 2 has no particular advantages for Harper and the Party but it might save Mr. Ritz’s skin for a future cabinet appointment.

Option 3 retains a competent minister and ‘feeds’ the Western (Reform) Conservative base. Option 3 works IF the “legs” fall off this story because someone else screws up – please gods, not another Tory! And that is something that can and likely will happen in the next three weeks.

Well there is some 'good' from all this: here.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Great contributions to the discussion, ERC - thanks!

• What is the ROI (return on investment) for immigrants? Is it not until the second generation (the first one born in Canada) that most immigrant become productive? (There’s that word, again.)

I'd be interested in seeing more than just government addressing this one.  For example, I live in a part of the world where about one out of three residents of a city the size of Burlington have no family doctor.  I hear anecdotes, however, of MDs from afar who have to face all sorts of hurdles to practice here.  Should they be conversant in English?  Yes.  Should they be deemed competent before being let loose on patients?  Yes.  Is there a better way to ensure both without having such professionals work as health care aides in nursing homes or driving taxis?  There has to be.  Also, where "doctor", read many other professionals.

Second part of your question here leads me to ask this:  Did my dad (off the boat in the 50's) contribute more or less to Canada working in a gold mine and building sidewalks and other infrastructure still in use in my hometown than I do now in a white-collar position with a university education?  How about the "off the boat" merchants, small business owners and entrepreneurs, many still in business, compared to their born-here-and-now-university-educated-white-collar kids?  I think there's cases to be made for both "yes" and "no" to both of these questions (not to mention every other combination/permutation of immigrant parents/born-in-Canada offspring).  How do you define "productive"?

 

[TCBF]

... How do you define "productive"?...

- In a word:  Italian.

8)

- Edited to add: ... for the unknowing, I am from the same city milnews is living in.

 

[Edward Campbell]

...  How do you define "productive"?

At least there is one easy question.

This, with its qualifiers about measurement difficulty, is the pretty standard definition. But I like the one in this picture better. Pulling a cart with square wheels when it is loaded with round wheels is not productive because it is not smart.

 

[dapaterson]

Mod squad, feel free to move this to a separate thread if warranted - shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Tories, Grits target military vote in '08 campaign
Mike Blanchfield, Canwest News Service, 21 Sept 08
Article link

Once again, the ignorance of the media comes out.  The majority of the Regular Force are not residents of the ridings where they live - for federal electoral purposes, unless they complete a set of paperwork, they are deemed to be electors in the riding where they enrolled.  While their spouses and families are deemed residents of the location where they are currently resident, the Regular Force member (or Reservist moved at Crown expense for full-time Reserve employment) are still deemed residents of their old home.

Thus, Flora MacDonald's claim to have been defeated by the military rings entirely hollow - the majority of the military votes out of Kingston went to other ridings.

I'm not surprised that journalists and politicians don't know about the electoral laws and regulations governing the military, though I always harbour a secret hope that some of them might take the time to learn...