The 2008 Canadian Election- Merged Thread
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Based on his performance to date.... I don't rate Mr Ignatieff very highly... he's running neck & neck with Stephane IMHO
Unfortunately, I don't see any real leadership in the Liberal party at this particular moment.... great critics but, no leaders in sight
Unfortunately, I don't see any real leadership in the Liberal party at this particular moment.... great critics but, no leaders in sight
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Maybe even the "c" team. That darn Paul Martin scared away a lot people from the Liberal party.
Though looking at the Conservatives; they are no great shakes either. Harper is no John Diefenbaker (my favorite Prime Minister ever) or even a Robert Stanfield. Sigh. What happened to the visionaries in Canadian politics?
stegner said:
- I'll take Borden over Dief the Chief.
- A true visionary would have funded the AVRO Arrow somehow. Also, his vacillation over accepting nukes gave the U.S. a reason to sub in their ringer: Pearson.
Lesson: Visionaries must survive in government to actually accomplish anything.
Whoa on the Avro Arrow and Diefenbaker. The program was based on cost plus ten(?) percent and was wildly overbudget. It threatened to consume the entire defence budget, not just the capital program. As I understand it, the military chiefs, including the chief of the air staff, had recommended it be cancelled. The Liberals had dodged the issue and the Chief finally took the unpopular and unfortunate decision.
This was during a tough economic downturn and a drop in the value of the dollar. The defence budget was targeted for economies; one effect was that the money from the sale of surplus equipment to other NATO countries that had been banked by DND to purchase new equipment was siezed and applied to other uses.
Like it or not, Dief had made enemies in the Kennedy adminstration by his obvious personal dislike of JFK and his refusal to order the Canadian forces to support the US and the other NATO allies during the Korean missile crisis. His vacilliation on the subject of arming the already purchased and deployed weapon systems in Europe and at home resulted in public interference by the Americans in the general election that resulted in a minority Liberal government. He had already been damaged when the MND and number of other ministers resigned over the same issue and publicly criticized him.
edit - typos corrected.
This was during a tough economic downturn and a drop in the value of the dollar. The defence budget was targeted for economies; one effect was that the money from the sale of surplus equipment to other NATO countries that had been banked by DND to purchase new equipment was siezed and applied to other uses.
Like it or not, Dief had made enemies in the Kennedy adminstration by his obvious personal dislike of JFK and his refusal to order the Canadian forces to support the US and the other NATO allies during the Korean missile crisis. His vacilliation on the subject of arming the already purchased and deployed weapon systems in Europe and at home resulted in public interference by the Americans in the general election that resulted in a minority Liberal government. He had already been damaged when the MND and number of other ministers resigned over the same issue and publicly criticized him.
edit - typos corrected.
Yeah, I meant Cuban, but my brain farted.
There wasn't the money in the Federal budget (which was tiny in constant dollars terms compared to today) at the time to fund the project. The challenge was that the unit cost was going to be too large to provide the number of aircraft needed. There is some documentary evidence (which I have not seen) that the Americans approached the Canadian ambassador in Washington with an offer to aid in the funding, but he turned them down without forwarding the offer to Ottawa.
In my opinion the decisions that doomed the industry was made several years later when the government axed the Avro Jetliner program. It is not generally known that Canada had developed the second jet civil transport to fly, but cancelled the program to concentrate on defence production.
There wasn't the money in the Federal budget (which was tiny in constant dollars terms compared to today) at the time to fund the project. The challenge was that the unit cost was going to be too large to provide the number of aircraft needed. There is some documentary evidence (which I have not seen) that the Americans approached the Canadian ambassador in Washington with an offer to aid in the funding, but he turned them down without forwarding the offer to Ottawa.
In my opinion the decisions that doomed the industry was made several years later when the government axed the Avro Jetliner program. It is not generally known that Canada had developed the second jet civil transport to fly, but cancelled the program to concentrate on defence production.
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The entire Arrow thing is a thread hijack, and should be split from this thread.
There were lots of different reasons that conspired to kill the Arrow program, everything from technical challenges with the missiles and fire control system, ever escalating unit cost, changing military environment (ICBM's were becoming the obvious threat, so there would be no Soviet bomber armadas to shoot down) and national pride when approaching other nations as potential customers ("Not invented here, I'm afraid"). Like dinosaurs, the CF-105 was very specialized for it's defence niche, so when the environment changed, it could not adapt and survive.
Now back to the crystal ball to see if there will be an election or not..................
There were lots of different reasons that conspired to kill the Arrow program, everything from technical challenges with the missiles and fire control system, ever escalating unit cost, changing military environment (ICBM's were becoming the obvious threat, so there would be no Soviet bomber armadas to shoot down) and national pride when approaching other nations as potential customers ("Not invented here, I'm afraid"). Like dinosaurs, the CF-105 was very specialized for it's defence niche, so when the environment changed, it could not adapt and survive.
Now back to the crystal ball to see if there will be an election or not..................
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My feelings are that the Conservatives think they can (and are quite prepared to) fight an election on any issue the Libs might throw at them.
Witness the Budget, responsible, cautious, prudent. No huge vote buying, but lots of little focused programs which can be seen as down-payments on previous election promises.
While I believe that Harper has sold his soul to the devil re his Afghanistan compromise it is a platform to drag the uninformed on side, and therefore should an election be called a position he could spin to win.
The crime bill threat to the Senate was perhaps Harpers boldest step. He issued an ultimatum to the Senate knowing full well his party's ability to fight an election on that bill and also knowing that De-Yawn would issue martching orders to the Liberal Senators to avoid any such election.
Steven Harper continues to play chess at a "Deep Blue" level while Dion plays tic-tac-toe... Yes I know the analogy usually used is checkers, but that is far too advanced a game for Dion in my opinion.
Witness the Budget, responsible, cautious, prudent. No huge vote buying, but lots of little focused programs which can be seen as down-payments on previous election promises.
While I believe that Harper has sold his soul to the devil re his Afghanistan compromise it is a platform to drag the uninformed on side, and therefore should an election be called a position he could spin to win.
The crime bill threat to the Senate was perhaps Harpers boldest step. He issued an ultimatum to the Senate knowing full well his party's ability to fight an election on that bill and also knowing that De-Yawn would issue martching orders to the Liberal Senators to avoid any such election.
Steven Harper continues to play chess at a "Deep Blue" level while Dion plays tic-tac-toe... Yes I know the analogy usually used is checkers, but that is far too advanced a game for Dion in my opinion.
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stegner said:
No, proof of that is that he continues to govern in spite of the fact that all the rest of them who control the majority have said they want him gone.
- Reaction score
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- Points
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The math seems simple enough: the combined number of opposition seats is greater than the governing party, therefore the governing party can be ejected at will. Given @ 60% of Canadian voters will support left wing parties, the calculus won't change much in the short to medium term.
Despite all this, the Conservative government has not only lasted two years in office, but also passed much of its legislative platform, rather than cowering in the front benches and letting the opposition dictate the agenda as the previous minority government did.
Would a majority government be nice? Sure it would. Is it required? We have a rare example of a minority government which can govern as a majority, so as long as Prime Minister Harper can play his masterful tactical game, they will govern until October 2009.
Despite all this, the Conservative government has not only lasted two years in office, but also passed much of its legislative platform, rather than cowering in the front benches and letting the opposition dictate the agenda as the previous minority government did.
Would a majority government be nice? Sure it would. Is it required? We have a rare example of a minority government which can govern as a majority, so as long as Prime Minister Harper can play his masterful tactical game, they will govern until October 2009.
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