The C7 Assault Rifle, M16, & AR15 family (C7A1, C7A2, C7 replacment, and C7 vs M16)

[Farmboy]

When I said "sniper team" I did not mean a fully trained sniper/spotter, because yes that would take huge resourses and time and the end result would be a waste. Yes I do understand the complexity, time, money ect. that go into the training.

Desinated marksman seems to be the correct term, so I will use it. Some one who can have a "sniper" rifle included in their kit that knows how to use it effectively, and if possible some one who can assist in seeing splash if need be (although not needed).

There are many soldiers in the CF who can be used in this role. However the problem being, like everything, is the higher ups knowing how to use it and implement it effectively, and money to outfit everyone of these soldiers/troops/units with a rifle. For some reason I don't see everyone being allowed to bring their own comp. rifles.

My apologies to those offended by my quick rash comments above, and next time I will try to be clearer and more thoughtfull.

 

[Infanteer]

Well, I think we have settled any discrepancies on this forum.

Excoelis, you're experience with the matter of discussion and such makes soldiers like you and Jungle authorities on this forum to some extent; sorry if the term SME seemed to conotate something else 

Now, as for the discussion.

I take it the DM was a bit of a success on APOLLO.  Is there any talk about moving this idea to a more formal level such as including in the TO&E of the new light infantry battalions that are being bandied about.  Besides the obvious tactical advantages these can bring to a platoon I see it as an excellent opportunity to promote excellence in marksmanship within the CF, a "high-speed" position within the platoon that can encourage others to work on their shooting skills.

As well, are these guys normally taking souped up rifles with match ammo when they go out, or are we giving DMs something that can merely "reach out and touch someone" a little bit further away.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Would the DM be using a 7.62 or a service C7? If they do start to see more use in the CF maybe we shoould look at the 6.8mm variant of the M16 to fill this role.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Thinking out loud here but would a re conditioned FNC1 fill this role (designated marksman) or would something else be desired?

 

[tacsit]

DMs are not supposed to be issued sniper rifles. Again, they are not trained to the level required to fully make use of an SWS. Rather they should be given accurized rifles, nothing more. Something along the lines of what the IDF does is fine: an M16A2 w/heavier barrel, multi-power optical sight (certainly more than the 3.5x of the Elcan; a shitty sight if I ever saw one), and a bipod. I personally believe DMs should be issued with a rifle in 7.62. What seems to me to fit the bill for this role is the SR-25, manufactured by Knights Armament Corporation. Designed to shoot 1 minute-of-angle groups at 600 yards, I think this is a perfect DM rifle. It has, in fact, been adopted by USNAVSPECWAR for issue to the teams and given the designation mk.11 mod.0. It has good parts commonality with the AR family of weapons and thus training requirements and maintenance outsourcing would not be a problem. Of course, I think an accurized M14 would do the job just fine as well.

 

[excoelis]

http://www.diemaco.com/

I'm not sure how far towards the opsec/persec line we are going here, so I will err on the side of caution and stick to generalizing.

Firstly, I'm not a sniper - I've had my share of good go's, so I understood when they chased me out of the office waving my 490A (MPRR) at me  ;D

They are just really cool guys and I like to hang around with them :

My unqualified observations:

Keep commonality of types of ammo on the battlefield.  'Better to have and need not - than to need and have not'.  Compensate for match grade or 'better' caliber ammo by using better wpns and better trained marksmen.  If we adopt a new or 'old' wpn system that is incongruent with the current family of weapons, how do we sustain the operators in the field.  Kit gets broke.  Resupply needs to be as simple as possible.  Common parts = logistically simple.  Gun-plumbers and operators need to be trained and intimately familiar with the kit your using - it's your life after all.

A Master Sniper put it to me this way:

Paraphrase: "Using .300 win mag or .338 Lapua is great - but there is nothing better than being able to grab some 5.56 or 7.62 off the troops you are supporting when the shit really hits the fan and you run out of fancy stuff". 
Not as accurate perhaps, but it will still kill people really far away if placed in the right hands.

I guess in context 'driving nails' is great on the range.  'In the shit' we have to consider all the 'ilitys'  ??? - like mobility, flexibility, sustainability, interoperability, etc.................


The other issue is the sniper/marksman thing.  Like has been stated previously, they are totally different animals(well..... most of them are animals)    Not just for reasons of equipment, training, or skill sets.  Understand that employment is at totally different levels.  A DM will be at the disposal of the sect, platoon, or maybe coy.  A sniper is employed at Bn or higher level - or coy if they are the ME........well, enough semantics, you get the picture.  Suffice to say that a CO will not give up his snipers to a platoon comd and conversely, a platoon comd will probably not be asked for his marksmen in support of higher level ops.

Anyway, before I start flapping my gums well beyond my purview, I will sum up.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable in this area can run with the ball?

Jungle?

 

[Farmboy]

Designed to shoot 1 minute-of-angle groups at 600 yards

To clarify, that's a 6 inch group. 1moa = 1inch at 100yds, 2 inches at 200yds ect.

How would DMs be selected? Would it just be by scores at the range?

 

[tacsit]

excoelis, I agree with you on parts and ammo commonality, which is why the SR-25 looks quite appealing. Parts commonality with current in-service weapons, and link for the C6s can be broken down and given to the DMs in a pinch.

 

[1feral1]

The Aussie contract SR25s (Rifle Mk blabla, Mod 0) come in a waterproof Pellican' black case. The rifle is really nice, and is basically an upgraded version of a 7.62mm NATO AR10, but SA only with many parts compatable with the M16FOW. Even the sling is leather, like the WW2 M1 Garand type.

In short, a nice piece of kit!

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Dave 514]

Hi:
I'm a new member of this august group. therefore a little background is necessary. I'm an American living in Scottsdale AZ. My father was English my mother French Canadian. My family is somewhat connected to the CF by way of my 4 greatsgrandfather who built Ft. Carillon and my great uncle who was the third man to join the NWMP and founded and was the first CO of the Ld SH . My own background is that I've been a pistol shooter since 1959 though I've fired many other weapons including the M16 though not the C7.

First of all my comments concern the basic design of the M16.Any weapon that needs a bolt assist says a lot about its basic design and should be relegated to the garbage heap immediately. ( I know why it was put there... to cover up the ignorance of the US Army knowledge of the difference between stick and ball powder.)

Secondly, I'm sure that the C7 has improved on the shortcomings of the M16.

Third regarding the Burst vs the Spray and Pray. Certainly the the recoil and controlability in S and P mode is easily mastered if the US would only learn and teach their troops properly and therefore obviate the necessity of putting on the Burst control q.v. quickshoot.com.
Respectfully,

David

 

[Infanteer]

First of all my comments concern the basic design of the M16.Any weapon that needs a bolt assist says a lot about its basic design and should be relegated to the garbage heap immediately. ( I know why it was put there... to cover up the ignorance of the US Army knowledge of the difference between stick and ball powder.)

Well, its popularity among many of the world's militaries would seen to indicate that perhaps relegating it to the "garbage heap immediately" would be a hasty decison.

Third regarding the Burst vs the Spray and Pray. Certainly the the recoil and controlability in S and P mode is easily mastered if the US would only learn and teach their troops properly and therefore obviate the necessity of putting on the Burst control q.v. quickshoot.com.

It's funny, I remember the British Para from CQB saying that they were always making fun of American's for using the "spray and pray" technique.  He goes on to comment that when they got into it heavy in the Falklands, alot of British Paras were doing the same thing.  I have a feeling that green troops seeing the elephant for the first time may be just as important as training in determining how well a soldier controls his aim and rate of fire in combat.

 

[Dave 514]

Infanteer:
The Snider rifle was popular as was the Martini , the rifle of course, but that doesn't make them good rifles.  Imagine being told that the rifle needs a bolt assist and you have the fines trifle in the worls ...give me a break!

No matter who uses S and P mode this is due to the lack of proper training  including FoOF.
Respectfully,

David

P.S. check quickshoot.com

 

[KevinB]

Well after wading through 7 pages...

DM's - the is still a question of exaclty what sort of 'course' the DM will take and questions remain about selection.  There also exists a struggle between the C7CT and AR10 (when Diemaco realises the right of first refusal can get the Mk11 Mod0 in - providing we dump the 24" bbl spec...) as for the position of the MRS (Marksman Rifle System). Right now units going overseas are using the Wpn Det as the hosting area for the DM - as he trails around with the Pl Comd and basically shoots tgt's the Lt/Capt think need to be shot.  However in the ORBAT's there is of yet no room for a DM so the OC/Pl Comd have to make the call to fit him in - by losing a position in the PL.  As TACSIT stated the DM's are not snipers - the roles are entirely seperate and the kit to do it is different too.  The bare bones DM will have a little bit better understand of the ROE and be an above avergae shooter - who hopefully has the inteligence to be able to work the variable scope on the weapon...

On 5.56mm wound balistics  go read http://www.ammo-oracle.com/ it is the best open source ammuntion document available. 

The M16 family (including the C7 subgroups) - the bolt assist - well the M14 has one too -> the charging handle unlike the M16 the M14's CH is reciprocating being attahced to the bolt and all that.

I disagree that the Armoured need a DM at all.  If they are doing OP's where they need 031 skills - they should get 031's to do the jobs required.


The biggest problems right now is that the MRS guns (both the AR10T's and the C7CT's) are OP usage only - which gets into a steep learning curve if all of a sudden troops are tossed into a role they have not been able to train for.

 

[Kirkhill]

Some stats you may find interesting.

"Studies of frontline combat during WW2 reveal that US troops expended 25, 000 small arms rounds for every enemy soldier they killed. In the Korean Warthe number doubled to 50, 000 rounds per enemy death. By the time the United States went to war in South East Asia, technological advances in weapons had made it possible to place a fully automatic rifle in the hands of every American infantryman, and the firepower of fully automatic "rock and roll" resulted in the expenditure of 200,000 rounds of ammunition for every enemy body."

Taken from
Inside the Crosshairs: Snipers in Vietnam
Michae lee Lanning

" ....The Comte de Guibert (ca 1800's?) thought that one hit in 500 rounds fired was a reasonable score. Perhaps the best achievement in musketry in the whole period came at Maida in Calabria 1806 where Kempt's light brigade, 630 strong (Baker Rifles?)....fired three volleys, the first at 115 yards and the last at 30.....seemed to have achieved the remarkable hit rate of one hit for just over four rounds."    Richard Holmes, Redcoat: The British Soldier in the Age of Horse and Musket.  Harper Collins 2001.

Apropos of very little here but after I saw the above quote from Lanning (posted by D-n-A I believe) I was reminded of Holmes's discussion on the killing ability of Muskets and other Muzzle loaders.  Other authors confirm similar types of data, usually with comments to the effect of how poor musketry skills on the battlefields were and commenting favourably on the chances of survival of the "victims".

Based on comparative stats it seems to me that there is a case to be made for reverting to "Brown Bess" and the Baker Rifle.  ;D
Quartermasters would be happier.

Cheers.

 

[tacsit]

Kevin, good post. Was wondering when you were going to step in  . Please check out the thread in the equipment section regarding non-issue kit. I think your voice needs lending to that issue.

 

[KevinB]

Tac,  I had kinda forgotten about this site (and been REALLY busy)

I responded in that other thread -- Now I know why the Strats were all upset about my Oakleys on head, sleeves unbuttoned DGAF attitude  ;D

 

[tacsit]

Kev, you should check in more often bro. I hopped over from LF once I saw some of the posts here... oy the amount of disinformation! Any chance of you coming to the tac carbine course in July? Was moved down to Camden so us guys who're going are renting a van, doing the road trip bit. Stopping by the LF store on the way back up as well. Keep up the fight with DLR eh? The pointy end guys need it. BTW, will be e-mailing you in a couple days to bank your veritable wealth of AR knowledge so keep a lookout, need some advice.

P.S. The Oaks and sleeves? Yeah. Heaven forbid somebody might look like a member of the ski team . Can't have that now can we  ;D.

 

[KevinB]

tac - heavens no...

My leave block is booked unfortunately - trip to Ont w/ my son and visit the folks.

Circa March/April next year I will have some time to take in some more courses...

Actually had a good meeting with DLR - while we agreed to disagree on some points,
they definitely do listen.


Kev does the ski team impression
Bond, Kevin Bond  ;D 

KevinB - twice the asshole in half the time

 

[Lance Wiebe]

I'll throw in a little history for some that may be interested.

Being a sniper is an art of warfare all unto itself.  As most of us know, it takes far more than shooting skills and a fancy weapon to become a sniper!

During the 76 Olympics, there was a need for marksmen.  Trying to take someone out from within a crowd, so the army decided to run a marksman course.  It was run by the Infantry Battalions, not the School, and was designed simply to make a soldier a much better shot, and to try and instill the right mental attitude.  Standard issue weapons (FN's) were used, however, each weapon was taken, in our case from the 8CH, and inspected by armourers.  After being accurised, the designated soldiers fired groups from a pile of weapons, until a "match" was found.  The C3 was not considered, for two reasons, there were'nt enough of them, and secondly, it would make the marksman stand out from the rest of the soldiers.

These marksmen went through a very comprehensive course, which, naturally involved a lot of shooting, but no fieldcraft.  If I recall correctly, the course was six weeks long.

There can be a time and a place for marksmen, and accurised weapons, on that I think most will agree.  But, in my opinion, today, much more would be gained by spending a lot more time with the soldier and his weapon on the range, under competent coaches.  Today's soldier does not spend any where near enough time on the ranges beoming proficient with his weapon, be it 105 or 5.56 mm.  The ammunition cuts are criminal, and should be done away with!

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

You know whats truly sad? I have done more range time with the navy then I ever did with the RCDs...I think thats getting downright criminal and negligent.